[ubuntu-uk] ubuntu-uk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 2
Andrew Nixon
andrewnixon0 at gmail.com
Tue Dec 2 08:06:48 GMT 2008
On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <andrewnixon0 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <andrewnixon0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <andrewnixon0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <andrewnixon0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <andrewnixon0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <andrewnixon0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <andrewnixon0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <andrewnixon0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/1/08, ubuntu-uk-request at lists.ubuntu.com
>>>>>>>> <ubuntu-uk-request at lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Send ubuntu-uk mailing list submissions to
>>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>>>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>>>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of ubuntu-uk digest..."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Re: OT CPU Advice (Seb Ward)
>>>>>>>>> 2. Re: OT CPU Advice (Rob Beard)
>>>>>>>>> 3. Re: OT CPU Advice (gav)
>>>>>>>>> 4. Re: OT CPU Advice (Chris Coulson)
>>>>>>>>> 5. Re: OT CPU Advice (Rob Beard)
>>>>>>>>> 6. Re: OT CPU Advice (Rob Beard)
>>>>>>>>> 7. Re: OT CPU Advice (gav)
>>>>>>>>> 8. Re: OT CPU Advice (Darren Mansell)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:05:04 +0100
>>>>>>>>> From: Seb Ward <ubuntu at gmx.it>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice
>>>>>>>>> To: ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <20081201130504.223000 at gmx.com>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>>>> URL:
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/attachments/20081201/573bffc7/attachment-0001.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:52:42 +0000
>>>>>>>>> From: Rob Beard <rob at esdelle.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice
>>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <B0E1E96C-9757-4AC7-AD88-D4DFDCCF3E86 at esdelle.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed;
>>>>>>>>> delsp=yes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 1 Dec 2008, at 10:24, Darren Mansell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I sold my EEE PC about 10 months ago and for (almost) the same
>>>>>>>>>> money
>>>>>>>>>> built
>>>>>>>>>> a very respectable rig with bits from ebuyer. My spec was:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Decent Abit mainboard
>>>>>>>>>> AMD Athlon X2 4200+
>>>>>>>>>> 2GB Corsair standard stuff
>>>>>>>>>> 2 x 250GB Samsung SATA HDD's (in Linux software MD RAID 0, it
>>>>>>>>>> rocks)
>>>>>>>>>> dual layer DVD-+RW
>>>>>>>>>> 19" wide HannsG monitor
>>>>>>>>>> Good quality case from eBay with decent PSU
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It was a grand total of about ?300 but I had to make sure I got
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> components. Most important is the PSU as Rob says. I've always
>>>>>>>>>> liked
>>>>>>>>>> Abit
>>>>>>>>>> motherboards. Foxconn are actually pretty good from my experience.
>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>> used to make Intel's own brand boards, not sure if they still do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The disk speed makes this computer feel very fast.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I heard bad things about Foxconn boards and Linux a while ago,
>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>> remember if it was posted here. I'm just a bit dubious now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm currently running an Athlon X2 3800+ and that seems pretty
>>>>>>>>> quick
>>>>>>>>> (I did have a Phenom X4 9600 but it died over the weekend and the
>>>>>>>>> Athlon X2 was the only thing I had which could chuck in the board).
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> could also recommend the Pentium Dual Core chips as they're also
>>>>>>>>> pretty quick (I had one before upgrading to the Phenom, it's now
>>>>>>>>> sitting in my wife's PC).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:11:46 +0000
>>>>>>>>> From: "gav" <revford at blueyonder.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice
>>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <20081201141146.GA16685 at bluemidget.local>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:52:42PM +0000, Rob Beard wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm currently running an Athlon X2 3800+ and that seems pretty
>>>>>>>>>> quick
>>>>>>>>>> (I did have a Phenom X4 9600 but it died over the weekend and the
>>>>>>>>>> Athlon X2 was the only thing I had which could chuck in the
>>>>>>>>>> board).
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> could also recommend the Pentium Dual Core chips as they're also
>>>>>>>>>> pretty quick (I had one before upgrading to the Phenom, it's now
>>>>>>>>>> sitting in my wife's PC).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've not really found a massive multi-core chip to be needed on a
>>>>>>>>> modern
>>>>>>>>> Linux desktop, recently I've moved over to an Atom processor on my
>>>>>>>>> desktop,
>>>>>>>>> this board:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ebuyer.com/product/147222
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Works beautifully under Ubuntu and Debian for me and the whole
>>>>>>>>> system
>>>>>>>>> runs
>>>>>>>>> with an 80W power supply, rather than the hundreds of Watts these
>>>>>>>>> big
>>>>>>>>> rig
>>>>>>>>> machines use.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Gav Ford
>>>>>>>>> revford at blueyonder.co.uk
>>>>>>>>> http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
>>>>>>>>> I think we need to: Reverse the polarity of the communications
>>>>>>>>> circuit
>>>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:21:15 +0000
>>>>>>>>> From: "Chris Coulson" <chrisccoulson at googlemail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice
>>>>>>>>> To: "British Ubuntu Talk" <ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>> <383a17600812010621n454d12d2x52ae694f0f0e5b5e at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2008/12/1 Rob Beard <rob at esdelle.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Dec 2008, at 10:24, Darren Mansell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I sold my EEE PC about 10 months ago and for (almost) the same
>>>>>>>>>> > money
>>>>>>>>>> > built
>>>>>>>>>> > a very respectable rig with bits from ebuyer. My spec was:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Decent Abit mainboard
>>>>>>>>>> > AMD Athlon X2 4200+
>>>>>>>>>> > 2GB Corsair standard stuff
>>>>>>>>>> > 2 x 250GB Samsung SATA HDD's (in Linux software MD RAID 0, it
>>>>>>>>>> > rocks)
>>>>>>>>>> > dual layer DVD-+RW
>>>>>>>>>> > 19" wide HannsG monitor
>>>>>>>>>> > Good quality case from eBay with decent PSU
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > It was a grand total of about ?300 but I had to make sure I got
>>>>>>>>>> > good
>>>>>>>>>> > components. Most important is the PSU as Rob says. I've always
>>>>>>>>>> > liked
>>>>>>>>>> > Abit
>>>>>>>>>> > motherboards. Foxconn are actually pretty good from my
>>>>>>>>>> > experience.
>>>>>>>>>> > They
>>>>>>>>>> > used to make Intel's own brand boards, not sure if they still
>>>>>>>>>> > do.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > The disk speed makes this computer feel very fast.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I heard bad things about Foxconn boards and Linux a while ago,
>>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>>> remember if it was posted here. I'm just a bit dubious now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>>>>>>>>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rob,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You're probably referring to this:
>>>>>>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=869249
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>>>> URL:
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/attachments/20081201/edf17f68/attachment-0001.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:43:17 +0000
>>>>>>>>> From: Rob Beard <rob at esdelle.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice
>>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <49341425.5070107 at esdelle.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chris Coulson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You're probably referring to this:
>>>>>>>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=869249
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah that was it. TBH, there's not much difference in price
>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>> some of the Foxconn boards and other boards from MSI/Gigabite/ASUS
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message: 6
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:46:54 +0000
>>>>>>>>> From: Rob Beard <rob at esdelle.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice
>>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <493414FE.2060509 at esdelle.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> gav wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I've not really found a massive multi-core chip to be needed on a
>>>>>>>>>> modern
>>>>>>>>>> Linux desktop, recently I've moved over to an Atom processor on my
>>>>>>>>>> desktop,
>>>>>>>>>> this board:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ebuyer.com/product/147222
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Works beautifully under Ubuntu and Debian for me and the whole
>>>>>>>>>> system
>>>>>>>>>> runs
>>>>>>>>>> with an 80W power supply, rather than the hundreds of Watts these
>>>>>>>>>> big
>>>>>>>>>> rig
>>>>>>>>>> machines use.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess it depends on what you use your machine for. I *could*
>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> of all 4 cores on the Phenom but not very often, juging by the
>>>>>>>>> system
>>>>>>>>> monitor the majority of the time most of the cores were sat idle at
>>>>>>>>> about 1.2GHz and it was only specific things I did that actually
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> more than two cores. I do however sometimes tax the system so I
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> think an Atom would meet my needs. If I didn't play HD video on my
>>>>>>>>> other half's PC then an Atom would probably do her.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm considering an Atom Dual Core for my server (it's currently
>>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>>> an Athlon 1400) although I'm not sure what to do after reading
>>>>>>>>> this....
>>>>>>>>> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-atom-efficiency,2069.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message: 7
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:10:54 +0000
>>>>>>>>> From: "gav" <revford at blueyonder.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice
>>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <20081201191054.GA28322 at bluemidget.local>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 04:46:54PM +0000, Rob Beard wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm considering an Atom Dual Core for my server (it's currently
>>>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>>>> an Athlon 1400) although I'm not sure what to do after reading
>>>>>>>>>> this....
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-atom-efficiency,2069.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Atom seems to work fine for DVD playback, if that helps you
>>>>>>>>> judge
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the video side of things, I use an external USB DVD on the machine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've no interest in BluRay yet so I can't tell you how it handles
>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From that review, it looks like the chipset it holding the Atom
>>>>>>>>> back,
>>>>>>>>> 4W
>>>>>>>>> for the processor but 22W for the chipset seems backwards. However
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> chipset is well supported under Linux, especially the hassle free,
>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>> driver 3D support.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Gav Ford
>>>>>>>>> revford at blueyonder.co.uk
>>>>>>>>> http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
>>>>>>>>> I think we need to: Repair the kettle flow
>>>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>>>> Name: not available
>>>>>>>>> Type: application/pgp-signature
>>>>>>>>> Size: 197 bytes
>>>>>>>>> Desc: Digital signature
>>>>>>>>> Url :
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/attachments/20081201/182e8b0c/attachment-0001.pgp
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message: 8
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:50:11 +0000
>>>>>>>>> From: Darren Mansell <darren at vcoc.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice
>>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <342bbd654d1b1dbf225faa82bc732008 at localhost>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:21:15 +0000, "Chris Coulson"
>>>>>>>>> <chrisccoulson at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 2008/12/1 Rob Beard <rob at esdelle.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Dec 2008, at 10:24, Darren Mansell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > I sold my EEE PC about 10 months ago and for (almost) the same
>>>>>>>>>>> > money
>>>>>>>>>>> > built
>>>>>>>>>>> > a very respectable rig with bits from ebuyer. My spec was:
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Decent Abit mainboard
>>>>>>>>>>> > AMD Athlon X2 4200+
>>>>>>>>>>> > 2GB Corsair standard stuff
>>>>>>>>>>> > 2 x 250GB Samsung SATA HDD's (in Linux software MD RAID 0, it
>>>>>>>>>>> > rocks)
>>>>>>>>>>> > dual layer DVD-+RW
>>>>>>>>>>> > 19" wide HannsG monitor
>>>>>>>>>>> > Good quality case from eBay with decent PSU
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > It was a grand total of about ?300 but I had to make sure I got
>>>>>>>>>>> > good
>>>>>>>>>>> > components. Most important is the PSU as Rob says. I've always
>>>>>>>>>>> > liked
>>>>>>>>>>> > Abit
>>>>>>>>>>> > motherboards. Foxconn are actually pretty good from my
>>>>>>>>>>> > experience.
>>>>>>>>>>> > They
>>>>>>>>>>> > used to make Intel's own brand boards, not sure if they still
>>>>>>>>>>> > do.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > The disk speed makes this computer feel very fast.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I heard bad things about Foxconn boards and Linux a while ago,
>>>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>>>> remember if it was posted here. I'm just a bit dubious now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>>>>>>>>>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rob,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You're probably referring to this:
>>>>>>>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=869249
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Very interesting. Back in my R+D days for a used-to-be well known
>>>>>>>>> british
>>>>>>>>> PC manufacturer I had to do a lot with Windows WHQL testing. WHQL
>>>>>>>>> (Windows
>>>>>>>>> Hardware Quality Labs) is basically Microsoft paying hardware
>>>>>>>>> manufacturers
>>>>>>>>> to break support for Linux or any other OS.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are test suites called the HCT tests. The mainboard BIOS, VGA
>>>>>>>>> card
>>>>>>>>> BIOS, optical firmwares etc all had to be bodged to work with these
>>>>>>>>> tests.
>>>>>>>>> Microsoft would give you kickbacks via the MDP (market development
>>>>>>>>> program)
>>>>>>>>> if your stuff was all WHQL certified.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course every system integrator is then under pressure to get
>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>> piece
>>>>>>>>> of hardware in their PC's WHQL certified and in turn put pressure
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> hardware manufacturers to alter the BIOS/firmware to make it work
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Windows HCT. As money talks they have no time left to look at Linux
>>>>>>>>> support.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's all just another way Microsoft have to make Linux look like
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> cheap
>>>>>>>>> joke. Open standards are their enemy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk at lists.ubuntu.com
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> End of ubuntu-uk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 2
>>>>>>>>> ****************************************
>>>>>>>>>
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