[xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate -- TANSTAAFL AKA "FOSS vs Proprietary"

Fri Jul 14 05:10:35 UTC 2017

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Joao Monteiro <jmonteiro257 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> And that's not a bad thing, Guang, on the contrary.... variety, choices,
> creativity... the very spices of Life itself.
>
> What is needed is a common base upon which to build all that diversity.
>

But imagine.  Let's say Content Management System.  There are how many?
Maybe 200 or more?  Maybe each have 5 devs or more.  Imagine if there are
only 20 very good CMS, having 50 devs each.  Then each will be deeper and
richer.

>
> So, if I'm grasping this right, getting the major players creating a
> unified version of a kernel would do the trick, to a great extent.
>
> That unified kernel would then be able to serve all distros alike for
> their variety of userland programs and applications, surely...
>
> The chaos of distros comes to a great extent, for what I'm gathering of
> course, from the incompatibilities between kernels and their versions.
>
> Now. I'm well aware that what I'm suggesting here is a danger to turn the
> linux kernel into a copy of windows and its versions, but....
>
> I'm not suggesting it to become the standard for Linux, not even by a far
> shot. No!
>
> I'm suggesting that it could be done as the one distro aimed at
> facilitating and easing the transition from windows to linux for millions
> users desperate to find something familiar, easy and encouraging enough for
> them to finally have the courage to take the plunge.
>
> And once familiarized and comfortable enough with it, they/we would still
> have available the miryad of distros out there to extend our wings and
> explore and dive into.
>
> Just an idea, a view, an opinion, that's all...
>
> Tda ;)
>
>
>
> On 13 Jul 2017 07:25, "Guang Chao" <guang.chao.1974 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Joao Monteiro <jmonteiro257 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Richard,
>>>
>>> Thanks. Not knocking it, just being realist and aware of my own
>>> limitations - and capabilities alike, of course.
>>>
>>> Yes, I did find a way indeed... which is why I sustain that if I can do
>>> it, everybody can. And yet, I'm aware that there's a myriad of reasons why
>>> sometimes we may not be able to go ahead with our good intentions... time
>>> constraints, financial constraints, etc, to name just two of the most
>>> common in this day and age.
>>>
>>> There IS actually something as a free lunch in all the sense of the
>>> concept of "free". I could draw attentions to this very xubuntu community
>>> as a good example and prove it in unmistakeable and irrefutable terms, but
>>> it wouldn't serve any significant purpose right now... rather than elicit a
>>> never ending arguing about the sex of the angels... futile and pointless,
>>> lol...
>>>
>>> I'm glad you chose this approach and stated your goals for it... firstly
>>> because that's pretty much what I'd love to see this thread achieving
>>> (encouraging a variety of views, opinions, etc) and secondly because it
>>> gives me the opportunity to earn my bread as a devil's advocate, so to
>>> speak, hehehe...
>>>
>>> You said: "
>>>
>>> It is often not recognized that Microsoft, Apple, Canonical, Red Hat,
>>> Debian, and Ubuntu have something very much in common. They have one
>>> purpose in mind - providing product that matches their specific view of
>>> what the customer needs. I tried multiple distros - Debian was the best fit
>>> for _me_ [sometimes in hard to explicitly define ways].
>>>
>>> OK, good that you found one that suits you. However, you still settled
>>> for one of the main stream ones. And that's why there's so many varied
>>> distros out there. Some people can't find one that suits them, so they make
>>> use of linux's powerful versatility to grab a main stream one, tweak it and
>>> alter it to suit their needs and then make it available for whomever else
>>> to use if they like it.
>>>
>>> Great. Problem is that potential users aren't necessarilly
>>> programming-capable and if the author(s) of a distro stop developing it or
>>> maintaining it, those users will sooner or later be back on the search road
>>> for another one.
>>>
>>> And that's a massive downside factor to most.
>>>
>>> Lastly, isn't the purpose of every distro "maker", the same as you
>>> stated? Of course it is.
>>>
>>> Where it gets messy, though, is here... the "makers" of distros, OS's,
>>> etc, are programmers and programmers - by the very nature of the skillsets
>>> that made them programmers - have great difficulty understanding the needs
>>> and mindsets of the average user who has no programming knowledge, aptitude
>>> or intention to learn anything remotely resembling "programming".
>>>
>>> The average user is a typical consumer, with a consumer's mindset...
>>> s/he wants to grab a computer loaded with "something" that allows them to
>>> power it up and start typing away, pointing and clicking to get whatever
>>> they need done.
>>>
>>> That's what Bill Gates understood and the reason of the success of
>>> windows.
>>>
>>> This xubuntu xfce that I'm irredimibly in love with, seems to have been
>>> created by programmers who have to some extent realized this as well and
>>> even felt that exact need to some extent as well.
>>>
>>
>> It's how open source should work.  Someone don't like something, fork a
>> project or create your own.  Then people have lots of choices.  And that's
>> why you found xubuntu and xfce, because someone else forked or created
>> something, and it ended up you like what they did.
>>
>> But on the downside, open source is so fragmented.  See how many distro
>> there are.  How many desktop manager.  How many projects doing the same
>> thing.  Instead of the large majority focusing on only few good ones,
>> programmers are scattered doing their own version of what they want.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As such, I do see it as a potential serious alternative to desperate
>>> windows users yearning for a windows alternative.
>>>
>>> The mistake that many hurriedly make is to misinterpret this as being a
>>> way of trying to turn linux into a replacement alternative to windows as a
>>> focus of the development of the distro.
>>>
>>> No. It is not.
>>>
>>> Becoming a replacement alternative to windows comes unavoidably as a
>>> NATURAL CONSEQUENCE of the development and improvement of the distro.
>>> That's what need to be understood, imo...
>>>
>>> Tda :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12 Jul 2017 15:27, "Richard Owlett" <rowlett at cloud85.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> TANSTAAFL == "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
>>> q.v. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL>
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: Though I use Debian rather than Ubuntu, I often find this
>>> forum useful.
>>>
>>> On 07/12/2017 02:01 AM, Joao Monteiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> For those who may not have read it in the thread where I mentioned
>>>> it, the purpose of this thread is simple:
>>>>
>>>> My humble way of giving a contribution to the community within my
>>>> rookie means, in a threefold manner...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't knock it. Not only do you recognize (perhaps unconsciously)
>>> TANSTAAFL, but you saw a means to contribute by means other than
>>> programming. Other ways include proof reading &/or writing documentation
>>> and filing good bug reports.
>>>
>>>
>>>> 1) The original subject of a thread usually gets lost in the twists
>>>> and turns that the replies take, often going astray into subjects
>>>> that have nothing to do with their original subject.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I assume you are referring to
>>> <https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-users/2017-July/010229.html>.
>>>
>>>
>>> When that deviation from the original sibject happens, people are
>>>> welcome to bring that deviation into here. That way the threads can
>>>> remain as useful references to their titled subjects and with
>>>> valuable info pertaining to that subject alone
>>>>
>>>
>>> You have chosen one of the possible solutions, one appropriate to your
>>> apparent goals.
>>> In this post I chose a different method to achieve two goals:
>>>   A. maintain close relationship to original thread.
>>>   B. identify aspect of interest.
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2) To bring forth insights into pros and cons of one too many things
>>>> linux related and
>>>>
>>>> 3) To gather as many and varied views and opinions - preferably with
>>>> sensible explanations as to "why" - as possible, which can bring
>>>> precious insights into the needs and expectations that users have
>>>> from their particular linux distro (in this case xubuntu xfce);
>>>> a graphical or musical user will have different needs and
>>>> expectations than a math teacher, an
>>>> average user, a programmer, a forensic analyst, etc...
>>>>
>>>> This can in due course offer a substantial picture, map, of what is
>>>> lacking, what can be improved and how, etc...
>>>>
>>>> I have asked Ralph to please be the Prosecutor beating the crap out
>>>> of me, who will be the horned bugger's advocate :) .... I hope he
>>>> accepts, as he has very good views and strong opinions well
>>>> reasoned...
>>>>
>>>> So... I'll open it with a subject that is pertinent enough to have
>>>> some buying me a coffee and others hanging me by my balls :)
>>>>
>>>> Give me a few minutes to dawn a pair of kevlar undies and I'll kick
>>>> start the fuss :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I classify software differently than some people. I have a strong
>>> preference for FOSS for its emphasis on "free/libre" as in "free" speech.
>>> This is in contrast to "free/gratis". NOTE BENE: there there are many cases
>>> where proprietary software is available gratis - e.g. proprietary device
>>> drivers.
>>>
>>> I've been a computer *USER* since taking a required programming course
>>> as an E.E. student in the early 60's. My PC's have ranged from a Kim with
>>> 1k RAM, through some CPM-80 systems with 16-64k to my my current 3GB Debian
>>> Stretch systems [with long detour using MS DOS -> WinXP].
>>>
>>> I abandoned MS when they drifted from being a useful tool to requiring
>>> me to think in line with "the ONE true path" The final break was they
>>> effectively wanted me to rent new software that didn't meet my
>>> needs/desires any better than nominally obsolete product.
>>>
>>> It is often not recognized that Microsoft, Apple, Canonical, Red Hat,
>>> Debian, and Ubuntu have something very much in common. They have one
>>> purpose in mind - providing product that matches their specific view of
>>> what the customer needs. I tried multiple distros - Debian was the best fit
>>> for _me_ [sometimes in hard to explicitly define ways].
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Guang
>> <http://javadevnotes.com/java-float-to-string-2-decimal-places-examples/>
>>
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>>
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-- 
Guang <http://javadevnotes.com/java-integer-to-fixed-length-string/>
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