New panel size

Vincent imnotb at
Sat Nov 10 22:20:08 UTC 2007

On Nov 10, 2007 7:11 PM, Diego Ongaro <ongardie at> wrote:

> Before this gets out of hand, let me try to mediate. To summarize the
> discussion so far:
> - My suggestion was to not waste too much effort on something that
> will be fixed in 4.6, namely panel sizing.
> - Jelle's suggestion was that branding should happen in Xubuntu; any
> other development should happen upstream, collaborating with Xfce.
> - Jmak's response was that it is necessary make progress directly in
> Xubuntu to meet users' demands and stay competitive.
> I think there is something to be learned from all of this:
> *I* posted above explaining panel sizing in 4.6. I know about that
> because I idle in and keep up with the Xfce
> project that way. Regardless of whether or not Xubuntu takes my
> suggestion to not waste effort on the matter of panel sizing, it is
> important for everyone involved in that decision to consider
> upstream's work and plans. Similarly, if Xubuntu were to want to put
> effort into the matter, the panel developers upstream (Nick, Jasper)
> would be the best people to ask for advice. They know the code
> inside-out and can tell you what will work well and what won't,
> without any research.
> So, the lesson I ask you (Xubuntu) to take from this is: communicate
> with upstream to learn about Xfce's plans and discuss Xubuntu's plans.
> Both projects would benefit.
> I've already suggested one way to communicate with upstream, their IRC
> channel. You'll find that if you enter it (as Cody Somerville did
> yesterday), you will not have voice (be allowed to send messages).
> Even with this restriction, you will be able to learn about Xfce's
> plans. It's the best place to hear what people are currently working
> on. To discuss Xubuntu's plans, you should use the developer's mailing
> list [1]. It's also a good place to hear about longer-term plans and
> discussions. Once you build up an identity and a bit of a reputation
> with the Xfce developers, they will be willing to grant you voice in
> their IRC channel (you might have to ask, though).
> One final thing: you might find some anti-Xubuntu sentiment upstream.
> From my observations, this can stem from two issues:
> (1) Some upstream developers believe a distro should not substantially
> modify packages
> (2) Most upstream developers believe Xubuntu does not try to get its
> patches into Xfce (upstream)
> IMHO, you should deal with (1) by ignoring it. It goes against the
> Ubuntu philosophy, so don't worry about it. It's also more of a naming
> thing. They really mean Xubuntu isn't a "distro," since it does more
> than distribute software.
> You should deal with (2) by creating evidence to show that it's false.
> For example, make your first post to the xfce-dev mailing list a
> discussion of an existing Xubuntu-only patch that Xfce could benefit
> from. You might be told to start a bug report; that's fine, everyone
> on the mailing list still saw one more example of Xubuntu working to
> get its patches into Xfce. Then follow through with it.
> I think I've made it clear that more communication with Xfce
> (upstream) is important and beneficial to Xubuntu. And I've explained
> exactly how to do that, based on my experience. I hope I haven't
> offended anyone in this email, and I hope to see more Xubuntu
> representation on the Xfce communications channels.


Thank you. That was very useful. I've been lingering about on some Xfce
mailinglist (have to check if I'm subscribed to xfce4-dev though) but I
never even thought about joining their IRC channel. Will do that :)

> -Diego Ongaro
> [1]

On Nov 10, 2007 8:31 PM, jmak <jozmak at> wrote:

> When I started this discussion about xubuntu's look and feel, my
> initial proposal was to go back to the original layout, because that
> is how xfce was conceived at the first place.  Do not force something
> upon it that was not designed for. It is now obvious that xfce, at its
> current state, cannot function properly as a gnome layout but pretty
> well as a one at the bottom panel arrangement. If we go back to this,
> all the problems discussed in the past couple of days will go away.
> The solution is so simple.


I really feel that you are letting your personal preference play way too big
a role in this issue. Xfce's panels *where* designed to be able to be used
the way Xubuntu uses them now. It is far from obvious to me why it cannot
function properly in this layout. I *do* see why a dock-arrangement would be
a source of trouble to new users (i.e. they have to guess an application's
function by its icon). I also don't see why upstream would want us to use
that arrangement.

> --
> Vincent
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