Thoughts on OSS ZW

Fri Apr 10 21:42:02 BST 2009

*In ref to: "Your struggles with Ubuntu on your sister's and your own laptop
merely
reflects what any newbie might experience even in the Windows world!".*

Just so everyone understands where i am coming from... I'm not a novice when
it comes to Linux and OSS. I have been administering and developing software
that runs on Linux platforms for almost a decade now (since 2000).... I have
worked with Centos, Red Hat, Fedora, Debian, and Ubuntu. and my primary
programming languages are PHP and JAVA. My primary databases are MySQL and
Postgres. I have a very strong understanding and appreciation for OSS.

I respect the fact that you and many others have managed to work in ubuntu
with no problems. I think you too should respect and appreciate the fact
that Ubuntu desktops are not for everyone. I am a fairly sharp and tech
savvy individual - and I'm not saying ubuntu was impossible to use... it was
just not the right tool for my job... apart form my laptop all my desktops
run Ubuntu, and i use alot of OSS. if ubuntu were the answer to
everything... They would have a larger market share.. but they are not
yet... and the keyword in that last sentence is *YET*.

I'm looking forward to running on ubuntu 100%... but its just not right for
me yet... maybe in 2 or more years... but not now... at least not for me...
If it works for you now... good for you... Hopefully its development tools
will become better with time... I look forward to it... i really do.

Simpson Moyo

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Dr Kuda Dube <
kuda.dube at africadevelopers.com> wrote:

> Simpson,
>
> The issue within the debate on Linux vs Windows is not necessarily a
> question of which OS is better (although I really think that Linux is
> certainly better). Instead, the issue is more about the concepts of
> freedom and self-empowerment as well as the monetary costs balanced
> against these concepts.
>
> Your struggles with Ubuntu on your sister's and your own laptop merely
> reflects what any newbie might experience even in the Windows world! You
> and your sister could have easily utilised the Ubuntu support based on
> the many mailinglists including the ZOSS list and this particular list.
> people could have very easily taken you on a step by step process that
> takes a very short time to get yourself functional and productive on
> Ubuntu. Its not that things are more difficult do to on Ubuntu nor that
> Ubuntu is not ready for the masses but more a function of not having the
> necessary "driving skills" and not knowing where and how to get help in
> order to address the problem in the quickest possible way.
>
> The thing that attracts us as Zimbabweans to Ubuntu is that we can claim
> our place among others who share the feeling and experience that Ubuntu
> is theirs and can contribute to all of its aspects. We can cooperate
> with the rest of the world in building it and making it grow and develop
> without ever fearing that one day we will loose it. We can identify with
> it and make it an essential aspect of our lives and become enriched by
> it - and experience all this together with the rest of the world. There
> is this feeling of security and peace with FLOSS and Ubuntu that Windows
> will never give to us. Ubuntu does all the jobs we want but its is more
> this feeling and knowledge and actual experience of freedom and
> empowerment that should make Ubuntu better than Ms Windows. It is the
> possibility that our nation can invest in Ubuntu and realise that we
> have an enduring national asset in both the product and the skills set.
> --
> Kuda Dube <kuda.dube at africadevelopers.com>
>
>
> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 09:47 +0200, Simpson Moyo wrote:
> > Simpson,
> >
> > I totally agree with Nyasha.
> >
> > I have a linux server for my home network that runs ubuntu 8.10. It is
> > my file server, domain controller, and develoment server. And it works
> > great... i wouldnt change that setup even if microsft server 2008 went
> > open source.. :).
> >
> > But on the other hand... an ubuntu DESKTOP is not very practical for
> > most people. You need to take into consideration that not everyone has
> > an IT background.
> >
> > Good examples...
> >
> > Case 1:
> >
> > My sister is a writer and i setup ubuntu on her laptop...
> >
> > N.B. This is a person that just uses Microsoft Word and IE... Nothing
> else...
> >
> > Anyway... back to the story.. I setup ubuntu on her laptop... and she
> > dials up from home... and it is not easy to setup a dialup connection
> > on ubuntu for a non technical user... She had to come back to harare
> > with the laptop so i setup a dialup for her and even i had to google a
> > solution... She eventually went back to XP.
> >
> > Case 2:
> >
> > I installed ubuntu on my laptop and wanted to use it as my primary
> > development OS... It was a total pain.... It took upto 2 weeks to get
> > it to work the way i wanted. and even then some of the tools there
> > were not as good as the windows tools... For the sake of productivity
> > i had to revert back to windows...
> >
> > So in short what i am trying to say is this. I dont think Windows is
> > better than Linux... Nor do i think Linux is better than Windows... I
> > think that when one wants to install an OS they need to look at what
> > they want to be using it for and if it will be practical to use in
> > that environment/setup.
> >
> > We need to be open minded. Lets not let our ignorance blind us. There
> > are many areas where windows slam dunks linux hands down! same applies
> > to Linux... There are also many areas where windows has nothing on
> > linux...
> >
> > We are intelligent individuals... Lets lets look at things
> > objectively... linux is not for everyone and everyhing nor is windows
> > for everyone and everything... thats why none of them have 100% market
> > share.
> >
> > My $0.02
> >
> > Simpson Moyo
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/8/09, nyasha chihanga <rgchihanga at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > How are you everyone
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is an interesting topic i thought i will reply to. The question we
> > > should
> > > ask ourselves is that; if a student sleeps in class during a lesson,
> who is
> > > at
> > > fault? The tutor or the student?
> > >
> > > I think the tutor is at fault because the lesson they are giving is not
> > > relevant to the student's current position and if it is, then tutor is
> not
> > > making it interesting enough to keep the student awake. This is how it
> > > applies
> > > to all of us who think linux is the best operating when you want to
> argue or
> > > propose linux as the best option give relevant solutions that can
> overcome
> > > the
> > > current problems a user is having with VISTA as the competitor this
> should
> > > not
> > > pose a big problem. This can be extended to enterprise problem's for
> larger
> > > companies give them solutions to their problems not what platform they
> > > should
> > > be running on because it is better they really do not want to hear all
> about
> > > that, they do not mind how you implement the solution, but do care
> about the
> > > costs, support, training and if their problems are going to be solved.
> The
> > > other thing do not make linux look like it needs too much technical
> > > knowledge
> > > to use or like something that’s out of this world tell the prospective
> > > convert
> > > that its like windoz and it becomes interesting.
> > >
> > > The obstacles to Linux is that most people do not have the broadband to
> get
> > > the
> > > free software from and hence zimbos will not see the reason to try it
> out or
> > > migrate because pirated windows software is more readily available than
> > > broadband.
> > > If the piracy issue is tackled by the government and jail terms
> attached to
> > > activities associated to piracy then you will be able to overcome this
> issue
> > > and have a long queue of zimbos wanting your services dejavu.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The way to go is to provide relevant business or personal solutions and
> > > Windowz
> > > will lose hands down. DO NOT SHOOT DOWN WINDOZ provide solutions to
> > > problems.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nyasha
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: ubuntu-zw-request at lists.ubuntu.com
> > >> Subject: Ubuntu-zw Digest, Vol 23, Issue 8
> > >> To: ubuntu-zw at lists.ubuntu.com
> > >> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:00:42 +0100
> > >>
> > >> Send Ubuntu-zw mailing list submissions to
> > >>    ubuntu-zw at lists.ubuntu.com
> > >>
> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >>    https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-zw
> > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > >>    ubuntu-zw-request at lists.ubuntu.com
> > >>
> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> > >>    ubuntu-zw-owner at lists.ubuntu.com
> > >>
> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > >> than "Re: Contents of Ubuntu-zw digest..."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Today's Topics:
> > >>
> > >>    1. RE: Thoughts on OSS ZW (Neil)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 1
> > >> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:55:24 +0200
> > >> From: "Neil" <neil.coetzer at nationalit.co.zw>
> > >> Subject: RE: Thoughts on OSS ZW
> > >> To: "'ubuntu-zw'" <ubuntu-zw at lists.ubuntu.com>
> > >> Cc: team at ubuntu.org.zw
> > >> Message-ID: <20090407165336.87BBE1A7F3C at mail.nationalit.co.zw>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >>
> > >> KT! Nice to see the passion there dude!!! I can see it must have been
> a
> > >> very
> > >> heated "debate" :)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Unfortunately, it's a bit like trying to get someone to change their
> > >> religion.. It's not likely to happen very easily. Also, as I've said
> to
> > >> you
> > >> before, the majority of guys who put down open source (or Linux/Ubuntu
> in
> > >> general), aren't arguing because they're passionate about Windows, but
> > >> normally because they're intimidated by Linux :) At least that's
> normally
> > >> been the case in my experience. So my advice is: instead of getting
> angry
> > >> with people for their closed-minded, closed-source opinions.. Feel
> sorry
> > >> for
> > >> them instead! I guess some people are born for Linux and others are
> born
> > >> to
> > >> be button monkeys hahahahahahahaha.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So ya, I doubt it was passion driving his argument.. More likely a
> defense
> > >> mechanism due to feelings of inadequacy at being intimidated by a
> superior
> > >> operating system :) It's the same as a person watching a movie.. It
> might
> > >> be
> > >> one of the best story plots in history, but if someone doesn't
> > >> "understand"
> > >> it, they'll say the movie was bad. Same principles I think.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I do agree with you though, that those with an "open source vision"
> for
> > >> Zim
> > >> are few and far between. However, all that means is that we will have
> > >> greater satisfaction when that vision is realized, and when confronted
> by
> > >> the ignorance of people who don't know any better, that should only
> fuel
> > >> our
> > >> passion even more to go out there and educate more people! And of
> course,
> > >> the Freedom Toaster will play a huge role in this too, especially if
> we
> > >> get
> > >> the publicity we're hoping for. In the spirit of Ubuntu, we just have
> to
> > >> try
> > >> our hardest to educate people and cultivate an open-source "national
> > >> attitude". We have to accept that we will face resistance and try to
> be
> > >> patient and even respectful of other people's views. but it sure ain't
> > >> easy,
> > >> is it? Ok, ok. I'll make an effort to stop calling them button
> monkeys.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The fact is, open source WILL gain a solid footing in Zim - simply
> based
> > >> on
> > >> cost factors, it is inevitable. Our job is only to speed up the
> process.
> > >> As
> > >> we all know, Zim really does face an IT crisis and has been facing it
> for
> > >> some time. At the end of the day open source (and specifically
> Ubuntu!!)
> > >> has
> > >> greater potential than any proprietary software to play a significant
> role
> > >> in rescuing the country from that crisis. Just because it's free.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>   _____
> > >>
> > >> From: Kalpesh Thaker [mailto:luminary06 at gmail.com]
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:25 PM
> > >> To: ubuntu-zw
> > >> Cc: team at ubuntu.org.zw
> > >> Subject: Thoughts on OSS ZW
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hey guys,
> > >>
> > >> just some thoughts.... i had a huge discussion with the one guy here
> at
> > >> the
> > >> office about why ubuntu
> > >> cannot be compared to windows.. and of why ubuntu wins hands down even
> > >> before the discussion has started.
> > >> purely because ubuntu is free, and the developers working on it, do it
> as
> > >> an
> > >> open source project, rather than
> > >> as a marketing tool...
> > >>
> > >> 90% of the other persons argument came down to the availability of
> windows
> > >> and its
> > >> programs and of how easy it is to use in general. And of how much
> better
> > >> it
> > >> looks...
> > >>
> > >> so,,, i asked the same dude, how much he paid for windows, he said he
> got
> > >> it
> > >> for free...and that he downloaded it
> > >> off the internet.
> > >>
> > >> piracy!!!! WTF!!!!!!!??? how can you argue of how windows is better
> than
> > >> ubuntu, if you pirated it!!!!
> > >>
> > >> hahaha! im sorry but i just find it very ridiculous....that someone
> can
> > >> argue so "passionately" over something that
> > >> he legally could be jailed for!! hahaha..i completely freaked out...i
> just
> > >> cant stand to talk to such people....
> > >>
> > >>  Seriously though, windows guys will never win this argument.. over
> which
> > >> is
> > >> better.
> > >> considering you can run an ubuntu machine at nearly 100% of windows
> type
> > >> average usability....
> > >> and never have to pay for software....  ..as far as im concerned,
> there is
> > >> no argument.
> > >>
> > >> the second argument, and i can call it an ARGUMENT (yes, some swear
> words
> > >> did show themselves), is of how he shot down the
> > >> freedom toaster idea...as being a waste of time.
> > >>
> > >> see, this is where i lost it......
> > >>
> > >> i gave him three problems, and wanted him to answer them, being a
> > >> microsoft
> > >> stooge...
> > >>
> > >> this is a scenario of around 80% of our fellow zimbabweans, a
> situation
> > >> which is real on the ground in our present time.
> > >>
> > >> 1 - the average user will never afford to buy a computer.
> > >> 2 - the average user will have to rely on other parties to provide
> them
> > >> with
> > >> the "IT education" they will need for a job.
> > >> 3 - the average user will never afford to buy broadband or even a
> dialup
> > >> connection, in any case dial up is limited for software
> > >> procurement.
> > >>
> > >> so....what were his answers?????? unsurprisingly, a dumb ass look on
> his
> > >> face.....
> > >>
> > >> okes, the sad reality is that we are in this open source fight by
> > >> ourselves
> > >> in this country... our OSS visions are held by only us.
> > >> and as such, we will have to uphold this vision as a "loco team" as
> well
> > >> as
> > >> an "open source community". Its very clear
> > >> after the chat with this fool, that no one really cares about the
> fellow
> > >> on
> > >> the street. Guys like this are very oblivious to anything
> > >> else out there, because they can get everything for free, whether its
> > >> legal
> > >> or not. They just dont care....its time like this,
> > >> that makes me realise just how much BSA could gain from coming to a
> > >> country
> > >> like this, and believe me, they will
> > >> come. Just a matter of time.. thats all.
> > >>
> > >> He said he had used ubuntu for 2 months, and called it quits
> thereafter.
> > >> so
> > >> i asked him how long he's been using windows,
> > >> and he said most of his life.
> > >>
> > >> This is the problem, you cant use ubuntu for 2 months, and then expect
> to
> > >> know and understand how it works... unless this dude
> > >> used ubuntu for 5 years, and windows for also 5 years, i would value
> and
> > >> respect his opinion.
> > >> Believe me, i know everything there is to know about windows, i've
> used it
> > >> also for a long time in my life, purely, because
> > >> i didnt know there was a worthy alternative. BUT, there is an
> > >> alternative..
> > >> and people need to know about it.
> > >>
> > >> unfortunately,  this is what we will experience in our quest to bring
> open
> > >> source out into this country.
> > >>
> > >> my answers to the above questions, were as follows:
> > >>
> > >> 1 - remove the cost of the OS (microsoft) then deal with bare metal
> > >> hardware
> > >> prices. it is sad, that the price of a computer
> > >> can be driven up to 70% more than the basic hardware cost, because of
> > >> software licensing. Microsoft are very clever, in that they
> > >> have made alliances with brand computers, whereby MS OS's come bundled
> > >> with
> > >> the machine, whether you like it or not,
> > >> and remember, office suites and antivirus are sold seperately!
> > >>
> > >> 2 - If the relevant person can have his own computer, he will be able
> to
> > >> invest as much time into learning IT as they want,
> > >> without paying anyone or anything (besides zesa of course). Like most
> of
> > >> us,
> > >> they may discover a hidden talent within the
> > >> IT underworld, and that could lead them to a job, and an income. With
> room
> > >> for individual expansion...
> > >>
> > >> i.e you can be a sadza chef who knows how to setup exim, you will then
> get
> > >> a
> > >> hungry customer walk in, talking about how shitty
> > >> microsoft exchange can be, you could suggest using exim to him, give
> him a
> > >> few pointers on how to implement it,
> > >> before you know it, you're an IT manager at that same company, driving
> a
> > >> mazda bt50 double cab.
> > >>
> > >> 3 -  the answer to this???? OUR BELOVED TOASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!! end of
> story.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> > >> dangerous content by  <http://www.mailscanner.info/> MailScanner, and
> is
> > >> believed to be clean.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> > >> signature
> > >> database 3991 (20090407) __________
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://www.eset.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> > >> signature
> > >> database 3992 (20090407) __________
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> http://www.eset.com
> > >>
> > >> -------------- next part --------------
> > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > >> URL:
> > >>
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-zw/attachments/20090407/67025228/attachment-0001.htm
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Ubuntu-zw mailing list
> > >> Ubuntu-zw at lists.ubuntu.com
> > >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-zw
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> End of Ubuntu-zw Digest, Vol 23, Issue 8
> > >> ****************************************
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Join the all-new Windows Live Messenger family
> > > http://get.live.com
> >
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-zw/attachments/20090410/9084ab3e/attachment-0001.htm 