Thoughts on OSS ZW

Fri Apr 10 22:27:54 BST 2009

Hi all,

thanks, i think this is a very good debate.... because everyone is
airing their views openly. which is perfectly fine.... its not
childish... rather informative i think...
everyone has their own views... and i think discussions like this
broaden the horizon for everyone.,,in a very perfect way.

let us call this step 1 of the open source educational journey in zimbabwe..
its starts here..with us.

however, i just find that many of the posts above tend to defend
microsoft windows, rather than give ubuntu and its open source counter
parts a chance.

no one is saying that linux is better than windows.. rather that we've
got to make ubuntu work in this country in order to uplift the ICT
crisis that we all know is there... but no one wants to acknowledge
publically.

like dr dube has said, yes there are issues, but if you follow the
right guidelines... help is two minutes away.....

help is definitely there.... yet there is a golden rule, help comes to
those who want to help themselves.

okay, before the modem issue gets out of hand, i want to clear up
something once and for all, because after reading this, im quite sure
that no one knows what the real deal is. its all speculation... so let
me put it straight.

non technical people dont know this,but the modem problem in ubuntu,
isnt actually an ubuntu problem at all. its actually got nothing to do
with the operating system at all......for those of you who are not
familiar about winmodems, may i suggest you check it out on google or
wikipedia (btw wikipedia is another open source project)

winmodems are software based modems, that run all the modem functions
through a software based driver... there are two kinds of modems
available to the end user for dial up use, there is a hardware modem,
and a software modem.

Ubuntu actually runs perfectly with hardware modems... it detects it
automatically and lets you set it up in a few minutes. the problem is
that most brand hardware vendors have used winmodems in their laptops,
and desktops.

for those of you familiar with the old school linux servers that used
those old external modems (us robotics) to dial up to the internet to
check mail every few minutes, this is the perfect example of hardware
modems...and it worked fine back then....

winmodems were designed to run via drivers. sadly, these drivers have
purely been developed for windows platforms. the manufacturers
themselves, lucent and conexant, cant be bothered to write linux
drivers...due to licensing/political agreements, or whatever else, so
at a manufacturer level, they wont develop non windows drivers.... so
other people have had to do this as a third party project.

hence projects like www.linmodems.org have come up.

end of the day, winmodems/softmodems are purely about the $$$. the
manufacturer saves huge amounts of cash by using these, they can sell
them cheaper than hardware modems, yet because the cost price is like
1/5 of the price of a full hardware modem... they make tremendous
profits...so for them its about money.

nearly every laptop i've seen around uses a softmodem.... hence why
simpson and even us have found it difficult to setup and use...even on
desktops.

rather i think, people need to become aware of this, so that they can
put pressure on this biased manufacturers to release open source
drivers at a manufacturer level.
once drivers become available, people can package these nicely, and
before you know it, you will soon be able to install ubuntu and use a
modem as easily as on a windows machine....instead people just assume
"oh crap, ubuntu doesnt work with my modem, what a peice of sh!@
operating system!"

because lucent and conexant havent done drivers for linux yet.., and
to some extent refuse to do it, i do think there is foul play
involved......and hence why i say there is HUGE bias on the IT floor
when it comes to microsoft and open source.

MS have been calling the shots for too long, and its unfortunate that
alot of IT related people, cant see passed an MS product because this
is all they are exposed to.

Windows is there, and will not be going anywhere.... thats a fact. but
at the moment, it is not the answer to getting ICT back to where its
meant to be in a country like zimbabwe....(remember we are working on
the assumption that software has to be paid for before you can use it)

my entire life i have worked with windows... i have done official
microsoft training, and have worked with windows on a server and
desktop level for MANY MANY years at both support and deployment
level... so believe me when i say i have been there and done that on a
windows machine...

i have experienced open source, and i believe it is the answer for a
situation like ours in zimbabwe...where the average joe has to pay for
icdl lessons.... and has to sit in a computer room somewhere doing
practicals on how to use microsoft office.
this person will end up paying alot for something that is very basic!
cost is a very big factor in zimbabwe... not only with computers.. but
everything!!

people who pirate software, usually end up spending more money on it
that if they had to buy the software.. especially when it comes to
operating systems and other high level platforms. you end up spending
alot of time circumventing anti piracy measures and fixing software to
work, especially when you have to buy every little peice of software
(anti virus, cd/dvd burning software, dvd and music playback) it gets
a little boring...and its a cycle you will never get out of...you end
up cracking and fixing over and over again,and end of the day, you are
at the mercy of a crack
or exploitation, from getting your computer locked.

imagine if i told you, the average joe, that i can offer you a
computer experience of the highest quality with cutting edge
technology, which contains all "windows type" software, for
free,,which even major ISP's and other corporates and developement
houses use as a platform, and is available completely free for you to
use and edit..,,both legally and morally,...what would you say? all
you have to do is pay for the machine... which doesnt have to be top
of the range machine, could even be a pentium 3, with 256mb of ram
with a cd drive...you'd never have to pay a cent for any software, no
matter what it was....what would you honestly say??

there is an open source substitue for every closed source application
available...
except things like ASP of course, where deliberate and permanent
measures are put in place to make sure it only runs on MS platforms.

On 4/10/09, Dr Kuda Dube <kuda.dube at africadevelopers.com> wrote:
> Simpson,
>
> The issue within the debate on Linux vs Windows is not necessarily a
> question of which OS is better (although I really think that Linux is
> certainly better). Instead, the issue is more about the concepts of
> freedom and self-empowerment as well as the monetary costs balanced
> against these concepts.
>
> Your struggles with Ubuntu on your sister's and your own laptop merely
> reflects what any newbie might experience even in the Windows world! You
> and your sister could have easily utilised the Ubuntu support based on
> the many mailinglists including the ZOSS list and this particular list.
> people could have very easily taken you on a step by step process that
> takes a very short time to get yourself functional and productive on
> Ubuntu. Its not that things are more difficult do to on Ubuntu nor that
> Ubuntu is not ready for the masses but more a function of not having the
> necessary "driving skills" and not knowing where and how to get help in
> order to address the problem in the quickest possible way.
>
> The thing that attracts us as Zimbabweans to Ubuntu is that we can claim
> our place among others who share the feeling and experience that Ubuntu
> is theirs and can contribute to all of its aspects. We can cooperate
> with the rest of the world in building it and making it grow and develop
> without ever fearing that one day we will loose it. We can identify with
> it and make it an essential aspect of our lives and become enriched by
> it - and experience all this together with the rest of the world. There
> is this feeling of security and peace with FLOSS and Ubuntu that Windows
> will never give to us. Ubuntu does all the jobs we want but its is more
> this feeling and knowledge and actual experience of freedom and
> empowerment that should make Ubuntu better than Ms Windows. It is the
> possibility that our nation can invest in Ubuntu and realise that we
> have an enduring national asset in both the product and the skills set.
> --
> Kuda Dube <kuda.dube at africadevelopers.com>
>
>
> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 09:47 +0200, Simpson Moyo wrote:
>> Simpson,
>>
>> I totally agree with Nyasha.
>>
>> I have a linux server for my home network that runs ubuntu 8.10. It is
>> my file server, domain controller, and develoment server. And it works
>> great... i wouldnt change that setup even if microsft server 2008 went
>> open source.. :).
>>
>> But on the other hand... an ubuntu DESKTOP is not very practical for
>> most people. You need to take into consideration that not everyone has
>> an IT background.
>>
>> Good examples...
>>
>> Case 1:
>>
>> My sister is a writer and i setup ubuntu on her laptop...
>>
>> N.B. This is a person that just uses Microsoft Word and IE... Nothing
>> else...
>>
>> Anyway... back to the story.. I setup ubuntu on her laptop... and she
>> dials up from home... and it is not easy to setup a dialup connection
>> on ubuntu for a non technical user... She had to come back to harare
>> with the laptop so i setup a dialup for her and even i had to google a
>> solution... She eventually went back to XP.
>>
>> Case 2:
>>
>> I installed ubuntu on my laptop and wanted to use it as my primary
>> development OS... It was a total pain.... It took upto 2 weeks to get
>> it to work the way i wanted. and even then some of the tools there
>> were not as good as the windows tools... For the sake of productivity
>> i had to revert back to windows...
>>
>> So in short what i am trying to say is this. I dont think Windows is
>> better than Linux... Nor do i think Linux is better than Windows... I
>> think that when one wants to install an OS they need to look at what
>> they want to be using it for and if it will be practical to use in
>> that environment/setup.
>>
>> We need to be open minded. Lets not let our ignorance blind us. There
>> are many areas where windows slam dunks linux hands down! same applies
>> to Linux... There are also many areas where windows has nothing on
>> linux...
>>
>> We are intelligent individuals... Lets lets look at things
>> objectively... linux is not for everyone and everyhing nor is windows
>> for everyone and everything... thats why none of them have 100% market
>> share.
>>
>> My $0.02
>>
>> Simpson Moyo
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/8/09, nyasha chihanga <rgchihanga at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > How are you everyone
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > This is an interesting topic i thought i will reply to. The question we
>> > should
>> > ask ourselves is that; if a student sleeps in class during a lesson, who
>> > is
>> > at
>> > fault? The tutor or the student?
>> >
>> > I think the tutor is at fault because the lesson they are giving is not
>> > relevant to the student's current position and if it is, then tutor is
>> > not
>> > making it interesting enough to keep the student awake. This is how it
>> > applies
>> > to all of us who think linux is the best operating when you want to
>> > argue or
>> > propose linux as the best option give relevant solutions that can
>> > overcome
>> > the
>> > current problems a user is having with VISTA as the competitor this
>> > should
>> > not
>> > pose a big problem. This can be extended to enterprise problem's for
>> > larger
>> > companies give them solutions to their problems not what platform they
>> > should
>> > be running on because it is better they really do not want to hear all
>> > about
>> > that, they do not mind how you implement the solution, but do care about
>> > the
>> > costs, support, training and if their problems are going to be solved.
>> > The
>> > other thing do not make linux look like it needs too much technical
>> > knowledge
>> > to use or like something that’s out of this world tell the prospective
>> > convert
>> > that its like windoz and it becomes interesting.
>> >
>> > The obstacles to Linux is that most people do not have the broadband to
>> > get
>> > the
>> > free software from and hence zimbos will not see the reason to try it
>> > out or
>> > migrate because pirated windows software is more readily available than
>> > broadband.
>> > If the piracy issue is tackled by the government and jail terms attached
>> > to
>> > activities associated to piracy then you will be able to overcome this
>> > issue
>> > and have a long queue of zimbos wanting your services dejavu.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The way to go is to provide relevant business or personal solutions and
>> > Windowz
>> > will lose hands down. DO NOT SHOOT DOWN WINDOZ provide solutions to
>> > problems.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Nyasha
>> >
>> >
>> >> From: ubuntu-zw-request at lists.ubuntu.com
>> >> Subject: Ubuntu-zw Digest, Vol 23, Issue 8
>> >> To: ubuntu-zw at lists.ubuntu.com
>> >> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:00:42 +0100
>> >>
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>> >> than "Re: Contents of Ubuntu-zw digest..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Today's Topics:
>> >>
>> >>    1. RE: Thoughts on OSS ZW (Neil)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:55:24 +0200
>> >> From: "Neil" <neil.coetzer at nationalit.co.zw>
>> >> Subject: RE: Thoughts on OSS ZW
>> >> To: "'ubuntu-zw'" <ubuntu-zw at lists.ubuntu.com>
>> >> Cc: team at ubuntu.org.zw
>> >> Message-ID: <20090407165336.87BBE1A7F3C at mail.nationalit.co.zw>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >>
>> >> KT! Nice to see the passion there dude!!! I can see it must have been a
>> >> very
>> >> heated "debate" :)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, it's a bit like trying to get someone to change their
>> >> religion.. It's not likely to happen very easily. Also, as I've said to
>> >> you
>> >> before, the majority of guys who put down open source (or Linux/Ubuntu
>> >> in
>> >> general), aren't arguing because they're passionate about Windows, but
>> >> normally because they're intimidated by Linux :) At least that's
>> >> normally
>> >> been the case in my experience. So my advice is: instead of getting
>> >> angry
>> >> with people for their closed-minded, closed-source opinions.. Feel
>> >> sorry
>> >> for
>> >> them instead! I guess some people are born for Linux and others are
>> >> born
>> >> to
>> >> be button monkeys hahahahahahahaha.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So ya, I doubt it was passion driving his argument.. More likely a
>> >> defense
>> >> mechanism due to feelings of inadequacy at being intimidated by a
>> >> superior
>> >> operating system :) It's the same as a person watching a movie.. It
>> >> might
>> >> be
>> >> one of the best story plots in history, but if someone doesn't
>> >> "understand"
>> >> it, they'll say the movie was bad. Same principles I think.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I do agree with you though, that those with an "open source vision" for
>> >> Zim
>> >> are few and far between. However, all that means is that we will have
>> >> greater satisfaction when that vision is realized, and when confronted
>> >> by
>> >> the ignorance of people who don't know any better, that should only
>> >> fuel
>> >> our
>> >> passion even more to go out there and educate more people! And of
>> >> course,
>> >> the Freedom Toaster will play a huge role in this too, especially if we
>> >> get
>> >> the publicity we're hoping for. In the spirit of Ubuntu, we just have
>> >> to
>> >> try
>> >> our hardest to educate people and cultivate an open-source "national
>> >> attitude". We have to accept that we will face resistance and try to be
>> >> patient and even respectful of other people's views. but it sure ain't
>> >> easy,
>> >> is it? Ok, ok. I'll make an effort to stop calling them button monkeys.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The fact is, open source WILL gain a solid footing in Zim - simply
>> >> based
>> >> on
>> >> cost factors, it is inevitable. Our job is only to speed up the
>> >> process.
>> >> As
>> >> we all know, Zim really does face an IT crisis and has been facing it
>> >> for
>> >> some time. At the end of the day open source (and specifically
>> >> Ubuntu!!)
>> >> has
>> >> greater potential than any proprietary software to play a significant
>> >> role
>> >> in rescuing the country from that crisis. Just because it's free.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>   _____
>> >>
>> >> From: Kalpesh Thaker [mailto:luminary06 at gmail.com]
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:25 PM
>> >> To: ubuntu-zw
>> >> Cc: team at ubuntu.org.zw
>> >> Subject: Thoughts on OSS ZW
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hey guys,
>> >>
>> >> just some thoughts.... i had a huge discussion with the one guy here at
>> >> the
>> >> office about why ubuntu
>> >> cannot be compared to windows.. and of why ubuntu wins hands down even
>> >> before the discussion has started.
>> >> purely because ubuntu is free, and the developers working on it, do it
>> >> as
>> >> an
>> >> open source project, rather than
>> >> as a marketing tool...
>> >>
>> >> 90% of the other persons argument came down to the availability of
>> >> windows
>> >> and its
>> >> programs and of how easy it is to use in general. And of how much
>> >> better
>> >> it
>> >> looks...
>> >>
>> >> so,,, i asked the same dude, how much he paid for windows, he said he
>> >> got
>> >> it
>> >> for free...and that he downloaded it
>> >> off the internet.
>> >>
>> >> piracy!!!! WTF!!!!!!!??? how can you argue of how windows is better
>> >> than
>> >> ubuntu, if you pirated it!!!!
>> >>
>> >> hahaha! im sorry but i just find it very ridiculous....that someone can
>> >> argue so "passionately" over something that
>> >> he legally could be jailed for!! hahaha..i completely freaked out...i
>> >> just
>> >> cant stand to talk to such people....
>> >>
>> >>  Seriously though, windows guys will never win this argument.. over
>> >> which
>> >> is
>> >> better.
>> >> considering you can run an ubuntu machine at nearly 100% of windows
>> >> type
>> >> average usability....
>> >> and never have to pay for software....  ..as far as im concerned, there
>> >> is
>> >> no argument.
>> >>
>> >> the second argument, and i can call it an ARGUMENT (yes, some swear
>> >> words
>> >> did show themselves), is of how he shot down the
>> >> freedom toaster idea...as being a waste of time.
>> >>
>> >> see, this is where i lost it......
>> >>
>> >> i gave him three problems, and wanted him to answer them, being a
>> >> microsoft
>> >> stooge...
>> >>
>> >> this is a scenario of around 80% of our fellow zimbabweans, a situation
>> >> which is real on the ground in our present time.
>> >>
>> >> 1 - the average user will never afford to buy a computer.
>> >> 2 - the average user will have to rely on other parties to provide them
>> >> with
>> >> the "IT education" they will need for a job.
>> >> 3 - the average user will never afford to buy broadband or even a
>> >> dialup
>> >> connection, in any case dial up is limited for software
>> >> procurement.
>> >>
>> >> so....what were his answers?????? unsurprisingly, a dumb ass look on
>> >> his
>> >> face.....
>> >>
>> >> okes, the sad reality is that we are in this open source fight by
>> >> ourselves
>> >> in this country... our OSS visions are held by only us.
>> >> and as such, we will have to uphold this vision as a "loco team" as
>> >> well
>> >> as
>> >> an "open source community". Its very clear
>> >> after the chat with this fool, that no one really cares about the
>> >> fellow
>> >> on
>> >> the street. Guys like this are very oblivious to anything
>> >> else out there, because they can get everything for free, whether its
>> >> legal
>> >> or not. They just dont care....its time like this,
>> >> that makes me realise just how much BSA could gain from coming to a
>> >> country
>> >> like this, and believe me, they will
>> >> come. Just a matter of time.. thats all.
>> >>
>> >> He said he had used ubuntu for 2 months, and called it quits
>> >> thereafter.
>> >> so
>> >> i asked him how long he's been using windows,
>> >> and he said most of his life.
>> >>
>> >> This is the problem, you cant use ubuntu for 2 months, and then expect
>> >> to
>> >> know and understand how it works... unless this dude
>> >> used ubuntu for 5 years, and windows for also 5 years, i would value
>> >> and
>> >> respect his opinion.
>> >> Believe me, i know everything there is to know about windows, i've used
>> >> it
>> >> also for a long time in my life, purely, because
>> >> i didnt know there was a worthy alternative. BUT, there is an
>> >> alternative..
>> >> and people need to know about it.
>> >>
>> >> unfortunately,  this is what we will experience in our quest to bring
>> >> open
>> >> source out into this country.
>> >>
>> >> my answers to the above questions, were as follows:
>> >>
>> >> 1 - remove the cost of the OS (microsoft) then deal with bare metal
>> >> hardware
>> >> prices. it is sad, that the price of a computer
>> >> can be driven up to 70% more than the basic hardware cost, because of
>> >> software licensing. Microsoft are very clever, in that they
>> >> have made alliances with brand computers, whereby MS OS's come bundled
>> >> with
>> >> the machine, whether you like it or not,
>> >> and remember, office suites and antivirus are sold seperately!
>> >>
>> >> 2 - If the relevant person can have his own computer, he will be able
>> >> to
>> >> invest as much time into learning IT as they want,
>> >> without paying anyone or anything (besides zesa of course). Like most
>> >> of
>> >> us,
>> >> they may discover a hidden talent within the
>> >> IT underworld, and that could lead them to a job, and an income. With
>> >> room
>> >> for individual expansion...
>> >>
>> >> i.e you can be a sadza chef who knows how to setup exim, you will then
>> >> get
>> >> a
>> >> hungry customer walk in, talking about how shitty
>> >> microsoft exchange can be, you could suggest using exim to him, give
>> >> him a
>> >> few pointers on how to implement it,
>> >> before you know it, you're an IT manager at that same company, driving
>> >> a
>> >> mazda bt50 double cab.
>> >>
>> >> 3 -  the answer to this???? OUR BELOVED TOASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!! end of
>> >> story.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
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