In ref to: "Your struggles with Ubuntu on your sister's and your own laptop merely reflects what any newbie might experience even in the Windows world!". Just so everyone understands where i am coming from... I'm not a novice when it comes to Linux and OSS. I have been administering and developing software that runs on Linux platforms for almost a decade now (since 2000).... I have worked with Centos, Red Hat, Fedora, Debian, and Ubuntu. and my primary programming languages are PHP and JAVA. My primary databases are MySQL and Postgres. I have a very strong understanding and appreciation for OSS. I respect the fact that you and many others have managed to work in ubuntu with no problems. I think you too should respect and appreciate the fact that Ubuntu desktops are not for everyone. I am a fairly sharp and tech savvy individual - and I'm not saying ubuntu was impossible to use... it was just not the right tool for my job... apart form my laptop all my desktops run Ubuntu, and i use alot of OSS. if ubuntu were the answer to everything... They would have a larger market share.. but they are not yet... and the keyword in that last sentence is YET. I'm looking forward to running on ubuntu 100%... but its just not right for me yet... maybe in 2 or more years... but not now... at least not for me... If it works for you now... good for you... Hopefully its development tools will become better with time... I look forward to it... i really do. Simpson Moyo <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Dr Kuda Dube <<a href="mailto:kuda.dube@africadevelopers.com">kuda.dube@africadevelopers.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Simpson, The issue within the debate on Linux vs Windows is not necessarily a question of which OS is better (although I really think that Linux is certainly better). Instead, the issue is more about the concepts of freedom and self-empowerment as well as the monetary costs balanced against these concepts. Your struggles with Ubuntu on your sister's and your own laptop merely reflects what any newbie might experience even in the Windows world! You and your sister could have easily utilised the Ubuntu support based on the many mailinglists including the ZOSS list and this particular list. people could have very easily taken you on a step by step process that takes a very short time to get yourself functional and productive on Ubuntu. Its not that things are more difficult do to on Ubuntu nor that Ubuntu is not ready for the masses but more a function of not having the necessary "driving skills" and not knowing where and how to get help in order to address the problem in the quickest possible way. The thing that attracts us as Zimbabweans to Ubuntu is that we can claim our place among others who share the feeling and experience that Ubuntu is theirs and can contribute to all of its aspects. We can cooperate with the rest of the world in building it and making it grow and develop without ever fearing that one day we will loose it. We can identify with it and make it an essential aspect of our lives and become enriched by it - and experience all this together with the rest of the world. There is this feeling of security and peace with FLOSS and Ubuntu that Windows will never give to us. Ubuntu does all the jobs we want but its is more this feeling and knowledge and actual experience of freedom and empowerment that should make Ubuntu better than Ms Windows. It is the possibility that our nation can invest in Ubuntu and realise that we have an enduring national asset in both the product and the skills set. -- Kuda Dube <<a href="mailto:kuda.dube@africadevelopers.com">kuda.dube@africadevelopers.com</a>> <div><div></div><div class="h5"> On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 09:47 +0200, Simpson Moyo wrote: > Simpson, > > I totally agree with Nyasha. > > I have a linux server for my home network that runs ubuntu 8.10. It is > my file server, domain controller, and develoment server. And it works > great... i wouldnt change that setup even if microsft server 2008 went > open source.. :). > > But on the other hand... an ubuntu DESKTOP is not very practical for > most people. You need to take into consideration that not everyone has > an IT background. > > Good examples... > > Case 1: > > My sister is a writer and i setup ubuntu on her laptop... > > N.B. This is a person that just uses Microsoft Word and IE... Nothing else... > > Anyway... back to the story.. I setup ubuntu on her laptop... and she > dials up from home... and it is not easy to setup a dialup connection > on ubuntu for a non technical user... She had to come back to harare > with the laptop so i setup a dialup for her and even i had to google a > solution... She eventually went back to XP. > > Case 2: > > I installed ubuntu on my laptop and wanted to use it as my primary > development OS... It was a total pain.... It took upto 2 weeks to get > it to work the way i wanted. and even then some of the tools there > were not as good as the windows tools... For the sake of productivity > i had to revert back to windows... > > So in short what i am trying to say is this. I dont think Windows is > better than Linux... Nor do i think Linux is better than Windows... I > think that when one wants to install an OS they need to look at what > they want to be using it for and if it will be practical to use in > that environment/setup. > > We need to be open minded. Lets not let our ignorance blind us. There > are many areas where windows slam dunks linux hands down! same applies > to Linux... There are also many areas where windows has nothing on > linux... > > We are intelligent individuals... Lets lets look at things > objectively... linux is not for everyone and everyhing nor is windows > for everyone and everything... thats why none of them have 100% market > share. > > My $0.02 > > Simpson Moyo > > > > On 4/8/09, nyasha chihanga <<a href="mailto:rgchihanga@hotmail.com">rgchihanga@hotmail.com</a>> wrote: > > > > > > > > How are you everyone > > > > > > > > This is an interesting topic i thought i will reply to. The question we > > should > > ask ourselves is that; if a student sleeps in class during a lesson, who is > > at > > fault? The tutor or the student? > > > > I think the tutor is at fault because the lesson they are giving is not > > relevant to the student's current position and if it is, then tutor is not > > making it interesting enough to keep the student awake. This is how it > > applies > > to all of us who think linux is the best operating when you want to argue or > > propose linux as the best option give relevant solutions that can overcome > > the > > current problems a user is having with VISTA as the competitor this should > > not > > pose a big problem. This can be extended to enterprise problem's for larger > > companies give them solutions to their problems not what platform they > > should > > be running on because it is better they really do not want to hear all about > > that, they do not mind how you implement the solution, but do care about the > > costs, support, training and if their problems are going to be solved. The > > other thing do not make linux look like it needs too much technical > > knowledge > > to use or like something that�s out of this world tell the prospective > > convert > > that its like windoz and it becomes interesting. > > > > The obstacles to Linux is that most people do not have the broadband to get > > the > > free software from and hence zimbos will not see the reason to try it out or > > migrate because pirated windows software is more readily available than > > broadband. > > If the piracy issue is tackled by the government and jail terms attached to > > activities associated to piracy then you will be able to overcome this issue > > and have a long queue of zimbos wanting your services dejavu. > > > > > > > > The way to go is to provide relevant business or personal solutions and > > Windowz > > will lose hands down. DO NOT SHOOT DOWN WINDOZ provide solutions to > > problems. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Nyasha > > > > > >> From: <a href="mailto:ubuntu-zw-request@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-zw-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > >> Subject: Ubuntu-zw Digest, Vol 23, Issue 8 > >> To: <a href="mailto:ubuntu-zw@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-zw@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > >> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:00:42 +0100 > >> > >> Send Ubuntu-zw mailing list submissions to > >> � �<a href="mailto:ubuntu-zw@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-zw@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > >> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> � �<a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-zw" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-zw</a> > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> � �<a href="mailto:ubuntu-zw-request@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-zw-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> � �<a href="mailto:ubuntu-zw-owner@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-zw-owner@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> than "Re: Contents of Ubuntu-zw digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> � �1. RE: Thoughts on OSS ZW (Neil) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:55:24 +0200 > >> From: "Neil" <<a href="mailto:neil.coetzer@nationalit.co.zw">neil.coetzer@nationalit.co.zw</a>> > >> Subject: RE: Thoughts on OSS ZW > >> To: "'ubuntu-zw'" <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-zw@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-zw@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> > >> Cc: <a href="mailto:team@ubuntu.org.zw">team@ubuntu.org.zw</a> > >> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20090407165336.87BBE1A7F3C@mail.nationalit.co.zw">20090407165336.87BBE1A7F3C@mail.nationalit.co.zw</a>> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> > >> KT! Nice to see the passion there dude!!! I can see it must have been a > >> very > >> heated "debate" :) > >> > >> > >> > >> Unfortunately, it's a bit like trying to get someone to change their > >> religion.. It's not likely to happen very easily. Also, as I've said to > >> you > >> before, the majority of guys who put down open source (or Linux/Ubuntu in > >> general), aren't arguing because they're passionate about Windows, but > >> normally because they're intimidated by Linux :) At least that's normally > >> been the case in my experience. So my advice is: instead of getting angry > >> with people for their closed-minded, closed-source opinions.. Feel sorry > >> for > >> them instead! I guess some people are born for Linux and others are born > >> to > >> be button monkeys hahahahahahahaha. > >> > >> > >> > >> So ya, I doubt it was passion driving his argument.. More likely a defense > >> mechanism due to feelings of inadequacy at being intimidated by a superior > >> operating system :) It's the same as a person watching a movie.. It might > >> be > >> one of the best story plots in history, but if someone doesn't > >> "understand" > >> it, they'll say the movie was bad. Same principles I think. > >> > >> > >> > >> I do agree with you though, that those with an "open source vision" for > >> Zim > >> are few and far between. However, all that means is that we will have > >> greater satisfaction when that vision is realized, and when confronted by > >> the ignorance of people who don't know any better, that should only fuel > >> our > >> passion even more to go out there and educate more people! And of course, > >> the Freedom Toaster will play a huge role in this too, especially if we > >> get > >> the publicity we're hoping for. In the spirit of Ubuntu, we just have to > >> try > >> our hardest to educate people and cultivate an open-source "national > >> attitude". We have to accept that we will face resistance and try to be > >> patient and even respectful of other people's views. but it sure ain't > >> easy, > >> is it? Ok, ok. I'll make an effort to stop calling them button monkeys. > >> > >> > >> > >> The fact is, open source WILL gain a solid footing in Zim - simply based > >> on > >> cost factors, it is inevitable. Our job is only to speed up the process. > >> As > >> we all know, Zim really does face an IT crisis and has been facing it for > >> some time. At the end of the day open source (and specifically Ubuntu!!) > >> has > >> greater potential than any proprietary software to play a significant role > >> in rescuing the country from that crisis. Just because it's free. > >> > >> > >> > >> � _____ > >> > >> From: Kalpesh Thaker [mailto:<a href="mailto:luminary06@gmail.com">luminary06@gmail.com</a>] > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:25 PM > >> To: ubuntu-zw > >> Cc: <a href="mailto:team@ubuntu.org.zw">team@ubuntu.org.zw</a> > >> Subject: Thoughts on OSS ZW > >> > >> > >> > >> Hey guys, > >> > >> just some thoughts.... i had a huge discussion with the one guy here at > >> the > >> office about why ubuntu > >> cannot be compared to windows.. and of why ubuntu wins hands down even > >> before the discussion has started. > >> purely because ubuntu is free, and the developers working on it, do it as > >> an > >> open source project, rather than > >> as a marketing tool... > >> > >> 90% of the other persons argument came down to the availability of windows > >> and its > >> programs and of how easy it is to use in general. And of how much better > >> it > >> looks... > >> > >> so,,, i asked the same dude, how much he paid for windows, he said he got > >> it > >> for free...and that he downloaded it > >> off the internet. > >> > >> piracy!!!! WTF!!!!!!!??? how can you argue of how windows is better than > >> ubuntu, if you pirated it!!!! > >> > >> hahaha! im sorry but i just find it very ridiculous....that someone can > >> argue so "passionately" over something that > >> he legally could be jailed for!! hahaha..i completely freaked out...i just > >> cant stand to talk to such people.... > >> > >> �Seriously though, windows guys will never win this argument.. over which > >> is > >> better. > >> considering you can run an ubuntu machine at nearly 100% of windows type > >> average usability.... > >> and never have to pay for software.... �..as far as im concerned, there is > >> no argument. > >> > >> the second argument, and i can call it an ARGUMENT (yes, some swear words > >> did show themselves), is of how he shot down the > >> freedom toaster idea...as being a waste of time. > >> > >> see, this is where i lost it...... > >> > >> i gave him three problems, and wanted him to answer them, being a > >> microsoft > >> stooge... > >> > >> this is a scenario of around 80% of our fellow zimbabweans, a situation > >> which is real on the ground in our present time. > >> > >> 1 - the average user will never afford to buy a computer. > >> 2 - the average user will have to rely on other parties to provide them > >> with > >> the "IT education" they will need for a job. > >> 3 - the average user will never afford to buy broadband or even a dialup > >> connection, in any case dial up is limited for software > >> procurement. > >> > >> so....what were his answers?????? unsurprisingly, a dumb ass look on his > >> face..... > >> > >> okes, the sad reality is that we are in this open source fight by > >> ourselves > >> in this country... our OSS visions are held by only us. > >> and as such, we will have to uphold this vision as a "loco team" as well > >> as > >> an "open source community". Its very clear > >> after the chat with this fool, that no one really cares about the fellow > >> on > >> the street. Guys like this are very oblivious to anything > >> else out there, because they can get everything for free, whether its > >> legal > >> or not. They just dont care....its time like this, > >> that makes me realise just how much BSA could gain from coming to a > >> country > >> like this, and believe me, they will > >> come. Just a matter of time.. thats all. > >> > >> He said he had used ubuntu for 2 months, and called it quits thereafter. > >> so > >> i asked him how long he's been using windows, > >> and he said most of his life. > >> > >> This is the problem, you cant use ubuntu for 2 months, and then expect to > >> know and understand how it works... unless this dude > >> used ubuntu for 5 years, and windows for also 5 years, i would value and > >> respect his opinion. > >> Believe me, i know everything there is to know about windows, i've used it > >> also for a long time in my life, purely, because > >> i didnt know there was a worthy alternative. BUT, there is an > >> alternative.. > >> and people need to know about it. > >> > >> unfortunately, �this is what we will experience in our quest to bring open > >> source out into this country. > >> > >> my answers to the above questions, were as follows: > >> > >> 1 - remove the cost of the OS (microsoft) then deal with bare metal > >> hardware > >> prices. it is sad, that the price of a computer > >> can be driven up to 70% more than the basic hardware cost, because of > >> software licensing. Microsoft are very clever, in that they > >> have made alliances with brand computers, whereby MS OS's come bundled > >> with > >> the machine, whether you like it or not, > >> and remember, office suites and antivirus are sold seperately! > >> > >> 2 - If the relevant person can have his own computer, he will be able to > >> invest as much time into learning IT as they want, > >> without paying anyone or anything (besides zesa of course). Like most of > >> us, > >> they may discover a hidden talent within the > >> IT underworld, and that could lead them to a job, and an income. With room > >> for individual expansion... > >> > >> i.e you can be a sadza chef who knows how to setup exim, you will then get > >> a > >> hungry customer walk in, talking about how shitty > >> microsoft exchange can be, you could suggest using exim to him, give him a > >> few pointers on how to implement it, > >> before you know it, you're an IT manager at that same company, driving a > >> mazda bt50 double cab. > >> > >> 3 - �the answer to this???? OUR BELOVED TOASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!! end of story. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> This message has been scanned for viruses and > >> dangerous content by �<<a href="http://www.mailscanner.info/" target="_blank">http://www.mailscanner.info/</a>> MailScanner, and is > >> believed to be clean. > >> > >> > >> > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > >> signature > >> database 3991 (20090407) __________ > >> > >> > >> > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >> > >> > >> > >> <a href="http://www.eset.com" target="_blank">http://www.eset.com</a> > >> > >> > >> > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > >> signature > >> database 3992 (20090407) __________ > >> > >> > >> > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >> > >> > >> > >> <a href="http://www.eset.com" target="_blank">http://www.eset.com</a> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: > >> <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-zw/attachments/20090407/67025228/attachment-0001.htm" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-zw/attachments/20090407/67025228/attachment-0001.htm</a> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> -- > >> Ubuntu-zw mailing list > >> <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-zw@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-zw@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > >> <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-zw" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-zw</a> > >> > >> > >> End of Ubuntu-zw Digest, Vol 23, Issue 8 > >> **************************************** > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Join the all-new Windows Live Messenger family > > <a href="http://get.live.com" target="_blank">http://get.live.com</a> > </div></div></blockquote></div>