[UbuntuWomen] Making Ubuntu-for-all _work_

[Melissa Draper]

Vid Ayer wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Thanks for taking this further Jacinta :-)
>
> On 5/20/07, Jacinta Richardson <jarich at perltraining.com.au> wrote:
>   
>> < jono> and I was also thinking of wider problems of discrimination - race,
>> culture, location, knowledge, gender
>> < jono> each of these discriminated groups need catering for and the wider
>> community needs a single message - equality for all
>> < jono> so, I was thinking of a project called Ubuntu For All
>> < jono> an equality project that has a number of subgroups, of which u-w would
>> be one
>>
>> Unfortunately he didn't really go into how he was going to make this work, and
>> searching for '"Ubunto for all" Jono' suggests that Google can't find further
>> mention of it either.
>>     
>
>  ... neither does the Ubuntu wiki or Launchpad (when i checked
> earlier). It would help to have some more info on UFA, its goals/aims,
> problems its seeks to address with clear ideas on how they will be
> resolved, if necessary.
>
>   

As per Lyz's reply, the most likely reason for this is due to various
people's schedules. The meeting itself occured in the middle of Open
Week, and since then Jono has been incredibly busy of late with 3
consecutive events, (UES on the 3rd and 4th, Ubucon on the 5th, and UDS
from the 6th to the 11th) as well as the organising and finalising of
these 3 events, not to mention catchup of doing things that would
otherwise have been done during that time.  I myself also attended part
of the UES, helped organise the Ubucon and participated in the UDS, with
at least 36hrs of travel either way.

Anyone at that meeting on the 26th could have started documentation of
the idea. As an aside, despite the fact there's no documentation of the
UFA project/campaign, there has been things happen relevant to the
concept anyway. Since the meeting, the Ubuntu-Youth group has been
initiated.

Rest assured however, the idea is not forgotten. While there was nothing
formal, there was an informal discussion or two in the bar. Of course we
were there to drink, so nobody scribed.

As a general rule though, good things usually do not happen overnight.
Have patience. It will come in due time.

>> To be honest I'm not 100% taken with the idea.  Svaksha
>> said (after Jono left):
>>
>> < svaksha> Probably, but I dont want the problems women in particular face to be
>> swept under the "feel-good-about-creating-foo-group" carpet which is magically
>> supposed to solve everything..
>>
>> and I agree.  Suggesting a grand project to solve a massive social problem
>> without any further efforts of engaging the affected people seems unwise to me.
>>     
>
> Right, would'nt it be easier if we started out with specific issues
> and took small steps to start with ?
> ...for example.. some folks feel that Ubuntu members are above others
> and use the "member" tag to shoot down others.  Some are excessively
> vocal (via forums/list/IRC or blogs on planet.ubuntu) while others are
> not. Some folks  participate "actively" untill they obtain the
> *-member status.
>
> FWIW, this can happen to anyone not related or involving women at all
> but the disconnect at some places in a community is disturbing. So, if
> there is an issue in any of the above cases, how do we recognise and
> address them.
>
>
>   
>>   However, let's pretend that it'll go ahead with buy-in from the Ubuntu
>> Community Council.  It seems to be that we need a few extra resources:
>>
>> Be respectful
>> -------------
>> The CoC has this as a requirement, however I think there is a general
>> unawareness of what might be meant by "respectful".  This isn't very surprising
>> as the concept changes rapidly based on age group even in the same society.
>> (Consider high school boys "joshing around", through to old people "expressing
>> an interest" in what's going on in the neighbourhood).  It might be a good idea
>> to attach a guide to what being respectful means to spell this out for those who
>> aren't certain.  Vid's Etiquette Guidelines (
>> http://mosshead.com/wikichix/index.php?title=EtiquetteGuidelines ) might be a
>> good place to start.
>>     
>
> True, fuzziness does not work and amongst all the talk of COC its easy
> for the issue to not be addressed  in concrete and tangible ways.
> Matthew Garrett's draft[0] is also a good place to start. I also found
> a COCGuidelines[1] page (which was empty) and have temporarily parked
> the Etiquette Guidelines there.
>
> [0] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductDisputeResolution
> [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductGuidelines
>
>
>   
>> Consequences
>> ------------
>> There should be some concept of consequences when someone steps outside of
>> acceptable boundaries.  Relying on peers to shame people into doing the right
>> thing doesn't work in the case where many of the participants fail to see the
>> issue with the offensive behaviour.  If most of your peers think (or seem to
>> think) that your behaviour is okay, then there's no shame in continuing it -
>> even if it crosses all the acceptable lines.  Consider the following:
>>     
>
> +1 to all of the above.
>
>   
>> Having consequences means you're serious, and thus legitimises the issues.  It
>> means it's okay for those who are offended to say so even if everyone else is
>> implying that the behaviour is okay.  Just like the real world, if breaking the
>> rules has no, or very rare consequences then there's no incentive to change
>> behaviour.
>>     
>
> +1 again.
>   
>> Having consequences encourages individuals to change and if that can happen, the
>> community will change.
>>     
>
> The Ubuntu COC was a first step in this regard, so logically the next
> would be to roughly define what is acceptable or not in an online
> community like ours. Certain patterns (online/in society?) are
> repetitive, can be quantified and addressed somewhat. I am aware it
> will not address every single issue with each and every permutation
> and combination thrown in, but we need to start somewhere and I hope
> [0] and [1] provide the momentum to get this rolling ahead.
>   
>> Going forward
>> -------------
>> I'think we need two conversations on this.  The first is on the elaboration on
>> respect.
>>         Are you happy to start with Vid's document?
>>         How can this document be improved?  (Feel free to make changes)
>>         How can this be written to be acceptable to the Ubuntu community?
>>         How might we go about attaching this to the CoC, or is there
>>         a better place for it?
>>
>> The second is with respect to consequences.
>>         Are there clear consequences detailed from the Ubuntu Community Council
>>         for various offences?
>>
>>         Beyond banning persistent offenders from various parts (or the whole) of
>>         the project are there other consequences that can be invoked?  For
>>         example, is there a way we can make examples of those who misbehave
>>         (hall of shame?) without making it a competition to get listed?
>>     
>
> I would love to hear what folks here think about this, particularly
> from women.  This is your chance to speakup, raise objections,
> (dis)agree, whatever....
>   

Changing the CoC is going to be a touchy and tricky thing to do anyway.
Does anyone remember the last time the CoC got updated? It wasn't
exactly a clean process, and involved people needing to sign it again,
some were even unaware for a significant period of time, that they were
no longer signatory to it. There are even some who still have not
resigned it because they were offended their signatory status was nulled
by the first version's retraction.

Additionally, any change to the CoC would not be a once off just for us
kind of thing. A full analysis of the document would begin, and the
whole community would be eligible to suggest changes. It would take a
fair deal of time to enact. This is not supposed to be a discouragement
-- rather a fair warning of due process.

On another front, the changes need to be really really really well
worded, and refrain from using specific examples. When you start using
any specifics, you need to use *all* specifics. Can you imagine how long
the document would end up? You'd be planning your retirement before
anyone finished writing it, let alone the challenge it would be to get
people to read it at such a length.

As a concern to be noted, we should note that the only people obliged to
respect the CoC are those who have signed it. It is a common frustration
with those in the IRC channels, for example, that they are subject to
something they didn't sign up to or agree to. While it is effectively a
TOS statement, most do not perceive it as such.

> Also can folks active in UbuntuForums post Jacinta's  message there please ?
>
> Can we schedule a meeting on IRC this week if possible. I am available
> 6-10pm IST till Friday.   Please note that due to timezones and
> work/busyness/life, it may not be possible for everyone to attend all
> meetings. Since IRC logs are not maintained it is not exactly open and
> transparent as far as decision-making  is concerned.
>
> Hence, major discussions on IRC *should always* be summarised to the
> mailing list/ubuntuforum before being considered final, especially
> policy and the like.
> Chat != Documentation
>
> Thanks,
> Vid
> http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/VidAyer
>
>   


-- 
Sincerely
Melissa Draper

http://www.meldraweb.com

Phone: 0404 595 395
(intl): +61 404 595 395

P.O Box 1412
Lavington, NSW 2641