Reasons for ikeeping an MTA (was [ubuntu-users] Re: Ubuntu is under attack)

[Tim Frost]

On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 09:24 +0100, Anders Karlsson wrote: 
> On 12/20/05, Mike Bird <mgb-ubuntu at yosemite.net> wrote:
> > We have shown numerous reasons why installing an MTA on all Ubuntu
> > systems is the right thing to do.  We have shown that it is more
> > in accord with the Ubuntu goal of "Just Works" then the alternative
> > of not providing an MTA out of the box.  The Unix tradition (which
> > is in effect the accumulated wisdom of millions of man-years of
> > development) says that a mail system should be installed.
> 
> No Mike, what you have shown is what you want and what you think is
> the only workable solution. If you want that MTA installed by default,
> use Ubuntu Server. It does exactly what you want.

Neither Mike nor I care *which* MTA is installed. (At least I haven't
seen a message that suggests that Mike has a preference, and I am
prepared to try any MTA, although my experience is with sendmail rather
than with postfix or other MTAs that are available.)   What I am
asserting is that *an MTA* is necessary on any *ix box that runs cron
(or that runs any other system tool which expects a program
named /usr/sbin/sendmail). 
> 
> There is absolutely no need to make the Desktop install worse just
> because a few people seem incapable of chosing the right tool for the
> job...
> 
> > And your reasoned and carefully explicated counter-argument is:
> > "An MTA is not required on the desktop."  "It's more of a server
> > capability."
> 
> Which is true. A desktop install need not have a MTA as a desktop
> install usually connects to a server for mail capabilities. To draw
> parallels with the Windows world, WinXP Pro has no MTA installed. You
> require the Exchange Server install to get a MTA.
> 
You are *not* comparing apples with apples.

A standard Windows workstation does not include any application that
uses/expects/... a locally-installed MTA/MUA.  In my last workplace, if
a Windows system (other than an Exchange server) needed the ability to
send mail, the server admins installed a command-line program that spoke
SMTP to a remote SMTP server.  That did not require a local MTA/MUA/MDA.

The cron utility, on the other hand, expects to be able to run the
program /usr/sbin/sendmail.  This forces (or should force) *all* systems
that include cron (which includes Ubuntu, debian, and most other Linux
distributions) to include a package that includes /usr/sbin/sendmail.  
I don't care whether that is sendmail, postfix, or some other MTA. 

And I don't care what MUA is used. I have used enough different user
agents to appreciate that *my* preferred MUA != *your* preferred MUA.

> > Forgive us if we stick with logic over "Mommy knows best", kept
> > promises (Ubuntu goals) over broken promises, and evidence
> > over ignorance.
> 
> I don't get your logic. If you want to use the Ubuntu desktop install,
> all you need to do is "apt-get install postfix mailx" and your
> 'problem' is solved. All this whining is pointless Mike. Use the
> server install image, and you wont even have to tell it to install
> postfix.
> 
> > How many alerts has your Ubuntu sent you that you will never
> > know about?
> 
> Not a single one, as instead of ranting and raving, making myself a
> laughingstock, I used apt to install what I required and got on with
> things.

Can you prove that? (Yes, I am aware that it is impossible to prove a
negative assertion such as this.)  Are you sure that you aren't affected
by the dangling symlink which was reported to me in an email last night,
which didn't get sent until I installed postfix? ( See one of my earlier
posts in this thread).

If no MTA is installed by default, I *can* guarantee that *all* mail
messages that installed utilities attempt to generate *MUST* go
to /dev/null, as there is no tool to send them anywhere else.  This may
be fine for a user who only has M$ as a reference poijt, but the idea
does NOT pass muster for anybody who has ever administered any *ix
system.


> 
> If you want to carry on the argument, take it off list. People are
> starting to get sick of it.

The proper forum for this debate is probably the ubuntu-devel list.

unfortunately, the setup of ubuntu-users includes an explicit reply-to,
which forces the discussion to stay in this list:(  I am at least trying
to redirect the discussion, by CC-ing ubuntu-devel. 
> 
> --
> Anders Karlsson <trudheim at gmail.com>

Tim