Sound cards (Was: Re: no sound

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 15:04 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
> Am 20.05.2011 14:58, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> > On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 14:36 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
> >> Am 20.05.2011 13:54, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> >>> On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 12:48 +0200, Robert Klaar wrote:
> >>>> Any Rme card is good, although they're a bit expensive. Didn't have to
> >>>> do a thing to get my hdsp 9632 working.
> >>>
> >>> Hi Robert :)
> >>>
> >>> the main reason to switch the sound cards is the audio sound quality.
> >>> I'm able to pay around 700,- EUR / 800,- EUR (right now, regarding to my
> >>> "profession", I usually don't have any money). Btw. I noticed that not
> >>> only my sound cards do cause loss. When recording soft synth just by
> >>> JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
> >>> sound quality too!
> >>
> >> No, there is none.
> >>
> >> Any software, that generates sounds from scratch like a softsynth wil
> >> produce exactly the same stream with any soun card. In fact such
> >> software will even generate the very same stream if no soundcard exists.
> >>
> >> And if you record such a stream with Jack you simply store that very
> >> stream bit by bit.
> >
> > Wrong! There still could be rounding errors and dithering involved
> 
> Yes, dithering makes a differnce -- if you use it.
> 
> And do you think, sound cards or drivers provoke specific rounding 
> errors in streams that are not even deliverd to them by Jack?

No! But I suspect a bug for Jack and btw. there already was a rounding
bug that was fixed, perhaps years ago.

The "you can't connect every client with every client, regarding to a
zero-copy issue" still was a topic some days ago on Jack devel mailing
list, but I didn't follow the thread, just noticed it randomly.

I won't lead on this discussion about a loss or no loss. When I noticed
sync issues, MIDI jitter and loss for audio before, most from the
community vetoed, then after a while the bugs I heard became a topic and
bug-fixes too.

I've got a good reputation regarding to professional audio engineering
and a bad name by the Linux community. I don't care about this.

A lot of people claimed that they don't have sync issues, but the coders
said that e.g. there was a sync issue for Hydrogen, when using Jack
transport, btw. I never used Hydrogen's step sequencer myself, but
noticed similar issues, for other usages. Very often people simply
aren't able to hear KNOWN issues.

Talking, resp. writing about some bugs is useless. I need to live with
those issues.

Ralf

> 
> > a
> > digital copy very often isn't a digital copy ;). But ok, here I didn't
> > use dithering and I do use 32-bit float, but the result has a loss. I
> > dunno what do cause this loss.
> >
> > For Jack there also is a zero-copy issue! You can't do wild connections
> > using Jack, but you need to take care about the order, when e.g.
> > connecting a client to itself.
> >
> >>
> >> I assure you, you get the very same data in a recording via Jack if you
> >> play the same patch of the same synth on a work station with a RME
> >> Hammerfall or on a Laptop with a built-in HDA.
> >>
> >> The only level on wich a soundcard is related to a softsynth is the one
> >> on wich you actually hear the stream. And some synths can render
> >> differntly, if Jack is running at 96KHz instead of 48 or 44.1.
> >> But this has only remotely to do with the sound card let alone its quality.
> >>
> >>> And soft synth already do sound less good than real
> >>> old synth. Unfortunately those real old synth can break and there're no
> >>> microchips available to repair those synth, resp. they are hard to get,
> >>> very expensive and without warranty.
> >>>
> >>> My two TerraTec EWX 24/96 needs to be replaced,
> >>
> >> Tell me where you dump them, these 2 more stereo-dacs would be most
> >> welcome in my box ;-)
> >>
> >> All the trouble with the envy24-cards is related to (mis)configuration
> >> and to stupidities like automatically zeroing all channels caused by PA
> >> in most cases.
> >> As of now these problems can be solved by the user. They are *not*
> >> acceptable, they are bugs that need to be solved. But these bugs are not
> >> show-stoppers.
> >>
> >>> before I don't have got
> >>> the money anymore. FWIW S/PDIF doesn't work for my Ubuntu Studio with
> >>> the TerraTecs, hence I can't use "good analog IOs" that would be
> >>> available via S/PDIF. Btw. "good analog IOs" in this context does mean
> >>> consumer DAT Sony DTC-670 and Aiwa HD-S1, both are without any loss of
> >>> sound quality, when listening by my consumer equipment. At least good
> >>> consumer sound quality is what I expect of a "professional" sound card,
> >>> even if internal Linux there still would be loss caused by JACK or
> >>> caused by what issue ever.
> >>
> >> Jack does not cause any "loss in sound-quality" because Jack does not
> >> have any influence on the way, the pcm-stream is produced by the
> >> driver/sound-card.
> >>
> >>> Once Brauner borrowed me a Mac with a Motu
> >>> firewire device.
> >>
> >> The MOTUs are quite okayish and they sound exactly the same on any
> >> system that supports them.
> >>
> >>> the Mac's sound quality
> >>
> >> There is no such thing.
> >> No Mac-expert would endorse something like a special "Mac-related" sound
> >> quality. Do not mix that up with "sound performance" that has to do with
> >> latencies and stability but *not* with how good it sounds in the end.
> >>
> >> You know why? Because no professional would want to buy/use any
> >> computer/OS, that attempts to manipulate the sound produced from a
> >> pro-interface, be it for better or worse.
> >> OS/Driver etc *has* to be absolutely neutral in that, everything else is
> >> "super-bass-enancer" nonsense that one my expect in a cheap MP3-player
> >> but certainly *not* in a computer-system built for pros.
> >>
> >>> accomplished this requirement! No, I'm not using Brauner microphones for
> >>> my home studio ;), all I need is good consumer sound quality.
> >>
> >> All your experience is fired by the real quality of the DAC/ADC-hardware
> >> on the cards you have used and to some extend may be influenced by
> >> mixer-settings.
> >>
> >>
> >> no offence ment but RTFM please.
> >>
> >>
> >> best regs
> >> HZN
> >>
> >>
> >>> Two question about the RME card, I'll read more about sound cards later
> >>> and during the weekend and maybe I'll order a card next week.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?xsid=294c1645e0e16b761c35fa8f9ebcec51&sw=HDSP+9632&x=0&y=0
> >>>
> >>> At a max of 4 analog IOs? The unbalanced breakout cables are part of the
> >>> product content?
> >>>
> >>> Cheers!
> >>>
> >>> Ralf
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
>