Sound cards (Was: Re: no sound

[Hartmut Noack]

Am 20.05.2011 14:58, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 14:36 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
>> Am 20.05.2011 13:54, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
>>> On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 12:48 +0200, Robert Klaar wrote:
>>>> Any Rme card is good, although they're a bit expensive. Didn't have to
>>>> do a thing to get my hdsp 9632 working.
>>>
>>> Hi Robert :)
>>>
>>> the main reason to switch the sound cards is the audio sound quality.
>>> I'm able to pay around 700,- EUR / 800,- EUR (right now, regarding to my
>>> "profession", I usually don't have any money). Btw. I noticed that not
>>> only my sound cards do cause loss. When recording soft synth just by
>>> JACK, without the sound cards being involved, there's a loss for the
>>> sound quality too!
>>
>> No, there is none.
>>
>> Any software, that generates sounds from scratch like a softsynth wil
>> produce exactly the same stream with any soun card. In fact such
>> software will even generate the very same stream if no soundcard exists.
>>
>> And if you record such a stream with Jack you simply store that very
>> stream bit by bit.
>
> Wrong! There still could be rounding errors and dithering involved

Yes, dithering makes a differnce -- if you use it.

And do you think, sound cards or drivers provoke specific rounding 
errors in streams that are not even deliverd to them by Jack?

> a
> digital copy very often isn't a digital copy ;). But ok, here I didn't
> use dithering and I do use 32-bit float, but the result has a loss. I
> dunno what do cause this loss.
>
> For Jack there also is a zero-copy issue! You can't do wild connections
> using Jack, but you need to take care about the order, when e.g.
> connecting a client to itself.
>
>>
>> I assure you, you get the very same data in a recording via Jack if you
>> play the same patch of the same synth on a work station with a RME
>> Hammerfall or on a Laptop with a built-in HDA.
>>
>> The only level on wich a soundcard is related to a softsynth is the one
>> on wich you actually hear the stream. And some synths can render
>> differntly, if Jack is running at 96KHz instead of 48 or 44.1.
>> But this has only remotely to do with the sound card let alone its quality.
>>
>>> And soft synth already do sound less good than real
>>> old synth. Unfortunately those real old synth can break and there're no
>>> microchips available to repair those synth, resp. they are hard to get,
>>> very expensive and without warranty.
>>>
>>> My two TerraTec EWX 24/96 needs to be replaced,
>>
>> Tell me where you dump them, these 2 more stereo-dacs would be most
>> welcome in my box ;-)
>>
>> All the trouble with the envy24-cards is related to (mis)configuration
>> and to stupidities like automatically zeroing all channels caused by PA
>> in most cases.
>> As of now these problems can be solved by the user. They are *not*
>> acceptable, they are bugs that need to be solved. But these bugs are not
>> show-stoppers.
>>
>>> before I don't have got
>>> the money anymore. FWIW S/PDIF doesn't work for my Ubuntu Studio with
>>> the TerraTecs, hence I can't use "good analog IOs" that would be
>>> available via S/PDIF. Btw. "good analog IOs" in this context does mean
>>> consumer DAT Sony DTC-670 and Aiwa HD-S1, both are without any loss of
>>> sound quality, when listening by my consumer equipment. At least good
>>> consumer sound quality is what I expect of a "professional" sound card,
>>> even if internal Linux there still would be loss caused by JACK or
>>> caused by what issue ever.
>>
>> Jack does not cause any "loss in sound-quality" because Jack does not
>> have any influence on the way, the pcm-stream is produced by the
>> driver/sound-card.
>>
>>> Once Brauner borrowed me a Mac with a Motu
>>> firewire device.
>>
>> The MOTUs are quite okayish and they sound exactly the same on any
>> system that supports them.
>>
>>> the Mac's sound quality
>>
>> There is no such thing.
>> No Mac-expert would endorse something like a special "Mac-related" sound
>> quality. Do not mix that up with "sound performance" that has to do with
>> latencies and stability but *not* with how good it sounds in the end.
>>
>> You know why? Because no professional would want to buy/use any
>> computer/OS, that attempts to manipulate the sound produced from a
>> pro-interface, be it for better or worse.
>> OS/Driver etc *has* to be absolutely neutral in that, everything else is
>> "super-bass-enancer" nonsense that one my expect in a cheap MP3-player
>> but certainly *not* in a computer-system built for pros.
>>
>>> accomplished this requirement! No, I'm not using Brauner microphones for
>>> my home studio ;), all I need is good consumer sound quality.
>>
>> All your experience is fired by the real quality of the DAC/ADC-hardware
>> on the cards you have used and to some extend may be influenced by
>> mixer-settings.
>>
>>
>> no offence ment but RTFM please.
>>
>>
>> best regs
>> HZN
>>
>>
>>> Two question about the RME card, I'll read more about sound cards later
>>> and during the weekend and maybe I'll order a card next week.
>>>
>>> http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?xsid=294c1645e0e16b761c35fa8f9ebcec51&sw=HDSP+9632&x=0&y=0
>>>
>>> At a max of 4 analog IOs? The unbalanced breakout cables are part of the
>>> product content?
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>> Ralf
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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