Meeting log - June 12, 2011 Meeting

[Jim Campbell]

Hi all,

Here's our meeting log from the June 12th meeting.  I'll be sending the
minutes out shortly.

15:03 < j1mc> #startmeeting
15:03 < MootBot> Meeting started at 15:03. The chair is j1mc.
15:03 < MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED],
[LINK], [VOTE]
15:04 < j1mc> we have an agenda up here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
15:05 < j1mc> with oneiric planning... i think maybe we should take that to
the list.
15:05 < j1mc> i think we'll get better discussion from everyone that way.
15:05 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Oneiric planning
15:05 < MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric planning
15:05 < j1mc> what do you both think?
15:06 < vtanthropologist> I haven't been involved enough to know what's
needed
15:06 -!- philbull [~philbull at client-7-219.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk] has joined
#ubuntu-meeting
15:07 < vtanthropologist> except ... a lot more
15:07 < j1mc> heya philbull
15:07 < vtanthropologist> hi philbull
15:07 < philbull> hey, sorry, got the wrong channel
15:07 < j1mc> vtanthropologist: fair enough
15:07 < philbull> hi guys
15:07 < Rocket2DMn> hey philbull
15:07 < j1mc> let me see if i can find the link to the wiki page for oneiric
planning
15:07 < vtanthropologist>
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric
15:07 < Rocket2DMn> j1mc, are there any particular items for oneiric
planning we want to discuss right now?
15:08 < vtanthropologist> is that it?
15:09 < j1mc>
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric
15:10 < jbicha> hi
15:10 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: well, we have the wiki topic listed for later
15:10 < j1mc> and we also are going to touch on gnome doc plans
15:11 < j1mc> jbicha: howdy
15:12 < j1mc> i think we can move on for now. we'll touch on the important
parts as we progress through other topics.
15:12 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Gnome app doc plans
15:12 < MootBot> New Topic:  Gnome app doc plans
15:12 < j1mc> there's actually some news to report on this
15:13 < j1mc> philbull: would you want to talk about what happened in the
past week on this?
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15:13 < philbull> Sure
15:13 < philbull> From the GNOME perspective?
15:13 < j1mc> that's fine... just the progress that was made
15:14 < j1mc> the work that was done to generate topics for apps
15:14 < philbull> Well, the GNOME docs team held a hackfest at the OpenHelp
conference in Cincinnati this past week
15:15 < philbull> The idea is to get as many GNOME applications' help
converted over to Mallard/topic-based help as possible for GNOME 3.2
15:15 < philbull> To that end, we stubbed-out a load of topics for a number
of GNOME applications
15:15 < philbull> (I'll be releasing a set of stubs some time this week,
hopefully)
15:15 < philbull> People can then take those stub topics, one at a time if
they like, and write the content
15:16 < philbull> Given enough people working on them, we can have a lot of
the help converted over in very little time
15:16 < philbull> (We managed to do this during the Toronto docs hackfest in
March, but for the GNOME desktop help)
15:16 < philbull> I think that's about it - we need to convert lots of apps
over, and we will have a basic structure prepared very soon
15:17 < philbull> Ubuntu should help out with this
15:17 < j1mc> Cool.  Yes, I think we'll get some help from Ubuntu...
15:17 < Rocket2DMn> Will we be using Gnome version 3.2 in Oneiric?
15:17 < j1mc> ... but we can also get help from Fedora and OpenSUSE, too.
15:18 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: good question. i would think so... the apps that
we have oneiric right now are gtk3 apps.
15:19 < j1mc> we can follow-up, though.
15:19 < j1mc> [ACTION] Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome
3.0 apps in oneiric.
15:19 < MootBot> ACTION received:  Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps
or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric.
15:20 < Rocket2DMn> yeah i'm looking at the alpha1 tech overview wiki page,
i see that we have switched to gnome 3 which is good news
15:20 < Rocket2DMn> not sure what trouble they will have transitioning
Unity, but that's not really our problem except for any changes the user
sees
15:22 < j1mc> just one last point on this... i think it will make it easier
for new contributors to help with writing docs. the topics will be
stubbed-out, so all of the boilerplate will be taken care of.
15:22 < j1mc> that should make things easier for anyone who wants to help.
15:22 < j1mc> but... more info on that later, i guess.
15:22 < j1mc> anything else on this for now?
15:23 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Team strategy document
15:23 < MootBot> New Topic:  Team strategy document
15:23 < j1mc> I don't really have an update on this. :) my last commit was a
week or so ago
15:23 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Ubuntu help website
15:24 < MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu help website
15:24 < j1mc> this is kinda interesting.
15:25 < vtanthropologist> I haven't spent much time looking at the content
to think about how it could be improved, but I've had to spend a bit of time
on converting xml for a browser for another project
15:25 < j1mc> i had a talk with jono late last week, and there seems to be
more of a drive to improve help.ubuntu.com, but i'm not sure if they are
eager to provide additional help, or what.
15:25 < vtanthropologist> I feel more comfortable about the idea of helping
build the site now - if you still need it
15:26 < j1mc> at the close of our talk, he said he was going to send a note
to the docs team ML, but maybe he hasn't had a chance to yet.
15:26 < j1mc> vtanthropologist: cool
15:26 < j1mc> for me, the big question is, are we at a point where we can
mostly assume that people have access to the web?
15:27 < j1mc> what do you think?
15:27 < Rocket2DMn> j1mc, in most cases people do, but are we planning on
adding documentation there that we won't ship as a package?
15:27 < vtanthropologist> Having lived in a developing country and seen
anyone with access to a pc having access to the web, I'd say yes
15:27 < philbull> j1mc: In most cases, apart from the very important case
where someone can't get their wireless drivers working
15:28 < j1mc> jbicha: what do you think?
15:28 < philbull> I guess people can ask to use a friend's internet
connection
15:28 < Rocket2DMn> j1mc, what are we getting at?
15:28 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: yeah, i think that would be a possibility.
15:29 < vtanthropologist> I agree with philbull that we need to cater for
wireless outages, but in that case most people still have windows as a
fallback
15:29 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i was thinking of something like
http://support.mozilla.com
15:29 < j1mc> and having a subset of those docs on-disk
15:29 < philbull> Another issue is translation
15:30 < j1mc> there is also http://support.mozilla.com/es/home
15:31 < j1mc> i don't know about this, either ... i'm not sure if this is
the right way to go, and i don't want people to be driven into anything.
15:32 < Rocket2DMn> It would be nice to have a portal like that to different
documentation sources
15:32 < Rocket2DMn> i'm not sure we can get away from shipping docs at this
time, we don't even have a framework for posting translated docs online yet
15:32  * j1mc nods
15:32 < Rocket2DMn> it was brought up in earlier discussions about doing
that though, which i think would be great
15:33 < Rocket2DMn> if that proves to be effective and maintainable, we
might be able to look at moving away from shipping docs in 12.04
15:36 < j1mc> i'm not sure what else to say on it for now... i think that
having a stronger, more interactive web presence for help would be good, and
it sounds like people are agreeable to it
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15:36 < j1mc> it's just a matter of criteria and resources
15:37 < j1mc> other thoughts on this for now?
15:37 < philbull> The Mozilla offering looks good (SuMo)
15:37 < philbull> and it would be nice to have the community wiki docs and
official docs available from the same interface
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15:38 < j1mc> one thing about SuMo is that they release weekly
15:38 < j1mc> so it's a bit of a moving target. although it's open source, i
don't know of any other groups that are using it.
15:39 < j1mc> i wish we could have a hackfest to work together on this.
15:40 < j1mc> philbull: i'll put our notes together and get them out on the
mailing list.
15:40 < philbull> great, thanks j1mc
15:40 < j1mc> ok... next topic
15:40 < j1mc> [TOPIC] server docs
15:40 < MootBot> New Topic:  server docs
15:41 < j1mc> the server team had a meeting where they asked about the
update to the server docs
15:41 < j1mc> adam sommer and the server group are interested in the format
similar to docs.openstack.org
15:41 < j1mc> and i'm going to get a test build together this week.
15:42 < j1mc> aside from getting confirmation from the server group, nothing
too knew to report on that for now, though.
15:42 < j1mc> s/knew/new
15:42 < j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog
15:42 < MootBot> New Topic:  docs team blog
15:43 < vtanthropologist> are you talking about having two different sites?
 a SuMo-like help site and a openstack-like docs site?  isn't that overkill?
15:43 < vtanthropologist> sorry. I missed the topic change
15:44 < j1mc> vtanthropologist: good point. as a short-term thing, i think
having the server docs in a nicer format would be good.
15:44 < j1mc> if we have the build tools available, and we don't have to
change the server docs too much, i think it's ok to go ahead with at least a
draft attempt at the new layout.
15:45 < vtanthropologist> so SuMo is a long-term vision?  but you're talking
about 12.04
15:45 < j1mc> i think so
15:46 < j1mc> right now, we don't have much in the line of support for web
resources, so ... that will take more time to sort out, i think.
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15:47 < vtanthropologist> it seems like too many conflicting focuses to me
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15:47 < j1mc> it's a lot of work, yes
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15:47 < j1mc> what do others think?
15:48 < charlie-tca> Can I throw my two cents in?
15:48 < Rocket2DMn> i think i got confused on our topics - are we talking
about the blog or about a new web interface to the docs?
15:49 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: we went back to the web-talk, sorry about that
15:49 < j1mc> charlie-tca: sure
15:49 < charlie-tca> I have been using Ubuntu/Xubuntu for about 6 years now.
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15:49 < charlie-tca> I have been helping with support in IRC for about three
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15:50 < charlie-tca> I do think having the docs on the web would be at least
as helpful as on the CD, since most people will not look for docs anywhere
but online
15:50 < charlie-tca> The first thought in today's world is "google"
15:51 < charlie-tca> and google seldom says "look at your computer"
15:51 < j1mc> :)
15:51 < charlie-tca> Even when wireless fails, people do not look at their
installed system for docs.
15:51 < charlie-tca> Thanks for letting me say it.
15:52 < j1mc> thanks, charlie-tca
15:53 < j1mc> do other people think the short-term look at redoing
server-docs, but progressing toward long-term getting the web-help in shape
would be a good direction to go?
15:53 < j1mc> or is it a conflict of sorts?
15:53 < j1mc> i know it's a lot of work.
15:53 < Rocket2DMn> i dont thikn that conflicts, the serverguide is already
online-only
15:54 < Rocket2DMn> but i think we need to continue shipping desktop docs
for now
15:54 < Rocket2DMn> people still report bugs about using the desktop help,
so people are definitely using it
15:54 < j1mc> :)
15:54 < j1mc> others?
15:54 < Rocket2DMn> (on their systems that is)
15:54 < vtanthropologist> if the server docs will be minimal effort, it's
probably ok, but I thought it would make more sense to put effort into one
site and build it out for the other components as we can
15:55  * j1mc nods...
15:55 < j1mc> i'll get to work on the server docs, and we'll start
considering options for web help.
15:56 < j1mc> i think this level of agreement is ok for this meeting though.
15:56 < j1mc> [AGREED] jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll
start considering options for web help.
15:56 < MootBot> AGREED received:  jim to get to work on the server docs,
and we'll start considering options for web help.
15:56 < ScottK> Please don't break the existing server guide.  It's pretty
good.
15:56 < j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog - for real
15:56 < MootBot> New Topic:  docs team blog - for real
15:56 < j1mc> ScottK: it'll stay in the same format. same docbook.
15:57 < j1mc> ScottK: we'll talk more later
15:57 < j1mc> mdke emailed canonical RT about docs.ubuntu.com
15:57 < j1mc> but we haven't heard back
15:58 < j1mc> any comments on the emails that went out about this?
15:58 < Rocket2DMn> do other teams have a dedicated blog?
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15:59 < j1mc> i know that the server team does, and i think a11y does, too.
15:59 < j1mc> there might be more
15:59 < j1mc> design team...
16:01 < j1mc> perhaps talk on this more once we hear back from RT?
16:01 < stgraber> edubuntu does as well. QA too, release team too, ...
16:02 < j1mc> ok... we'll wait on this a bit.
16:02 < j1mc> i know we're just over our hour, but can we still talk about
the wiki?
16:03 < Rocket2DMn> i'm available if other teams dont have this time slot
reserved
16:03 < j1mc> ok - we'll try here...
16:03 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Wiki cleanup
16:03 < MootBot> New Topic:  Wiki cleanup
16:04 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: you had some good comments on the ML about this.
16:05 < j1mc> have you had additional thoughts about it? anything you'd like
to add?
16:05 < Rocket2DMn> i've spent some time over the last couple of weeks
deleting a lot of old wiki pages
16:05 < Rocket2DMn> we could use help updating pages and/or tagging pages
that need work or just need to be outright removed
16:06 < j1mc> i think that would be a good start
16:07 < Rocket2DMn> I have a question though
16:07 < j1mc> would anyone be available to get the word out about this
request?
16:07 < j1mc> sure
16:07 < Rocket2DMn> some pages that are translated into other languages are
marked for deletion
16:07 < Rocket2DMn> Do we support translated pages on the community docs?
16:07 < Rocket2DMn> I don't think it's the correct place for them, but I've
never gone out of my way to manage them
16:08 < j1mc> good question... i would guess that the language coverage is
pretty spotty, too.
16:08 < Rocket2DMn> it is, I'm not sure how well the pages are maintained
either
16:09 < j1mc> is there an example page that you could point to?
16:09 < j1mc> how do you know if a page is translated?
16:09 < Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NlBluetooth
16:09 < Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RussianDocumentation
16:09 < Rocket2DMn> etc
16:10 < j1mc> thanks, Rocket2DMn.
16:11 < j1mc> should we bring these up on the ML?
16:11 < j1mc> i would feel bad about just deleting them, but we have no idea
what they say, and i doubt they receive much of a review.
16:11 < j1mc> or i have no way of knowing if they are reviewed
16:12 < Rocket2DMn> ML is fine with me
16:13 < vtanthropologist> can a deleted page be restored or do you delete
the history too?
16:13 < Rocket2DMn> they can be restored
16:13 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: do you have a blog on the planet? can you post
about how to tag pages as outdated / needing review / recommended for
deletion, or just point people to those pages on the wiki that describe how
to do it?
16:14 < vtanthropologist> ok, so worst case if you don't get a response on
the ML, deleting it should bring anyone that's been using it out of the
woodwork
16:14 < Rocket2DMn> j1mc, i don't keep a blog
16:15 < j1mc> ok... i can blog about it.
16:15 < Rocket2DMn> vtanthropologist, if they are subscribed to the page,
they should get an email
16:15 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: could you send a note out to the ML about the
translations?
16:16 < j1mc> (the wiki pages that have been translated)
16:16 < Rocket2DMn> yeah
16:16 < j1mc> ok. :)
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16:17 < j1mc> [ACTION] connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki
pages
16:17 < MootBot> ACTION received:  connor to send note to the ML about
translated wiki pages
16:17 < j1mc> [ACTION] jim to blog about tagging wiki pages
16:17 < MootBot> ACTION received:  jim to blog about tagging wiki pages
16:17 < j1mc> anything else for today?
16:17 < Rocket2DMn> i dont have anything
16:18 < vtanthropologist> nor me
16:18 < j1mc> okies... thanks for joining all.  :)
16:18 < j1mc> enjoy the rest of your sunday, wherever that may be.
16:18 < j1mc> #endmeeting
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