Hi all,<div><br></div><div>Here's our meeting log from the June 12th meeting. I'll be sending the minutes out shortly.</div><div><br></div><div><div>15:03 < j1mc> #startmeeting</div><div>15:03 < MootBot> Meeting started at 15:03. The chair is j1mc.</div>
<div>15:03 < MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]</div><div>15:04 < j1mc> we have an agenda up here: <a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda">https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda</a></div>
<div>15:05 < j1mc> with oneiric planning... i think maybe we should take that to the list.</div><div>15:05 < j1mc> i think we'll get better discussion from everyone that way.</div><div>15:05 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Oneiric planning</div>
<div>15:05 < MootBot> New Topic: Oneiric planning</div><div>15:05 < j1mc> what do you both think? </div><div>15:06 < vtanthropologist> I haven't been involved enough to know what's needed</div>
<div>
15:06 -!- philbull [~<a href="mailto:philbull@client-7-219.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk">philbull@client-7-219.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk</a>] has joined #ubuntu-meeting</div><div>15:07 < vtanthropologist> except ... a lot more</div>
<div>15:07 < j1mc> heya philbull </div><div>15:07 < vtanthropologist> hi philbull</div><div>15:07 < philbull> hey, sorry, got the wrong channel</div><div>15:07 < j1mc> vtanthropologist: fair enough</div>
<div>15:07 < philbull> hi guys</div><div>15:07 < Rocket2DMn> hey philbull</div><div>15:07 < j1mc> let me see if i can find the link to the wiki page for oneiric planning</div><div>15:07 < vtanthropologist> <a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric">https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric</a></div>
<div>15:07 < Rocket2DMn> j1mc, are there any particular items for oneiric planning we want to discuss right now?</div><div>15:08 < vtanthropologist> is that it?</div><div>15:09 < j1mc> <a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric">https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric</a></div>
<div>15:10 < jbicha> hi</div><div>15:10 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: well, we have the wiki topic listed for later</div><div>15:10 < j1mc> and we also are going to touch on gnome doc plans</div><div>15:11 < j1mc> jbicha: howdy</div>
<div>15:12 < j1mc> i think we can move on for now. we'll touch on the important parts as we progress through other topics.</div><div>15:12 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Gnome app doc plans</div><div>15:12 < MootBot> New Topic: Gnome app doc plans</div>
<div>15:12 < j1mc> there's actually some news to report on this</div><div>15:13 < j1mc> philbull: would you want to talk about what happened in the past week on this?</div><div>15:13 -!- jibel_ [~<a href="mailto:j-lalleme@ACaen-151-1-89-253.w86-215.abo.wanadoo.fr">j-lalleme@ACaen-151-1-89-253.w86-215.abo.wanadoo.fr</a>] has joined #ubuntu-meeting</div>
<div>15:13 -!- jibel_ [~<a href="mailto:j-lalleme@ACaen-151-1-89-253.w86-215.abo.wanadoo.fr">j-lalleme@ACaen-151-1-89-253.w86-215.abo.wanadoo.fr</a>] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]</div><div>15:13 < philbull> Sure</div>
<div>15:13 < philbull> From the GNOME perspective?</div><div>15:13 < j1mc> that's fine... just the progress that was made</div><div>15:14 < j1mc> the work that was done to generate topics for apps</div>
<div>15:14 < philbull> Well, the GNOME docs team held a hackfest at the OpenHelp conference in Cincinnati this past week</div><div>15:15 < philbull> The idea is to get as many GNOME applications' help converted over to Mallard/topic-based help as possible for GNOME 3.2</div>
<div>15:15 < philbull> To that end, we stubbed-out a load of topics for a number of GNOME applications</div><div>15:15 < philbull> (I'll be releasing a set of stubs some time this week, hopefully)</div><div>
15:15 < philbull> People can then take those stub topics, one at a time if they like, and write the content</div><div>15:16 < philbull> Given enough people working on them, we can have a lot of the help converted over in very little time</div>
<div>15:16 < philbull> (We managed to do this during the Toronto docs hackfest in March, but for the GNOME desktop help)</div><div>15:16 < philbull> I think that's about it - we need to convert lots of apps over, and we will have a basic structure prepared very soon</div>
<div>15:17 < philbull> Ubuntu should help out with this</div><div>15:17 < j1mc> Cool. Yes, I think we'll get some help from Ubuntu...</div><div>15:17 < Rocket2DMn> Will we be using Gnome version 3.2 in Oneiric?</div>
<div>15:17 < j1mc> ... but we can also get help from Fedora and OpenSUSE, too.</div><div>15:18 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: good question. i would think so... the apps that we have oneiric right now are gtk3 apps.</div>
<div>15:19 < j1mc> we can follow-up, though.</div><div>15:19 < j1mc> [ACTION] Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric.</div><div>15:19 < MootBot> ACTION received: Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric.</div>
<div>15:20 < Rocket2DMn> yeah i'm looking at the alpha1 tech overview wiki page, i see that we have switched to gnome 3 which is good news</div><div>15:20 < Rocket2DMn> not sure what trouble they will have transitioning Unity, but that's not really our problem except for any changes the user sees</div>
<div>15:22 < j1mc> just one last point on this... i think it will make it easier for new contributors to help with writing docs. the topics will be stubbed-out, so all of the boilerplate will be taken care of.</div>
<div>15:22 < j1mc> that should make things easier for anyone who wants to help.</div><div>15:22 < j1mc> but... more info on that later, i guess.</div><div>15:22 < j1mc> anything else on this for now?</div>
<div>15:23 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Team strategy document</div><div>15:23 < MootBot> New Topic: Team strategy document</div><div>15:23 < j1mc> I don't really have an update on this. :) my last commit was a week or so ago</div>
<div>15:23 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Ubuntu help website</div><div>15:24 < MootBot> New Topic: Ubuntu help website</div><div>15:24 < j1mc> this is kinda interesting.</div><div>15:25 < vtanthropologist> I haven't spent much time looking at the content to think about how it could be improved, but I've had to spend a bit of time on converting xml for a browser for another project</div>
<div>15:25 < j1mc> i had a talk with jono late last week, and there seems to be more of a drive to improve <a href="http://help.ubuntu.com">help.ubuntu.com</a>, but i'm not sure if they are eager to provide additional help, or what.</div>
<div>15:25 < vtanthropologist> I feel more comfortable about the idea of helping build the site now - if you still need it</div><div>15:26 < j1mc> at the close of our talk, he said he was going to send a note to the docs team ML, but maybe he hasn't had a chance to yet.</div>
<div>15:26 < j1mc> vtanthropologist: cool</div><div>15:26 < j1mc> for me, the big question is, are we at a point where we can mostly assume that people have access to the web?</div><div>15:27 < j1mc> what do you think?</div>
<div>15:27 < Rocket2DMn> j1mc, in most cases people do, but are we planning on adding documentation there that we won't ship as a package?</div><div>15:27 < vtanthropologist> Having lived in a developing country and seen anyone with access to a pc having access to the web, I'd say yes</div>
<div>15:27 < philbull> j1mc: In most cases, apart from the very important case where someone can't get their wireless drivers working</div><div>15:28 < j1mc> jbicha: what do you think?</div><div>15:28 < philbull> I guess people can ask to use a friend's internet connection</div>
<div>15:28 < Rocket2DMn> j1mc, what are we getting at?</div><div>15:28 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: yeah, i think that would be a possibility.</div><div>15:29 < vtanthropologist> I agree with philbull that we need to cater for wireless outages, but in that case most people still have windows as a fallback</div>
<div>15:29 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i was thinking of something like <a href="http://support.mozilla.com">http://support.mozilla.com</a></div><div>15:29 < j1mc> and having a subset of those docs on-disk</div><div>
15:29 < philbull> Another issue is translation</div>
<div>15:30 < j1mc> there is also <a href="http://support.mozilla.com/es/home">http://support.mozilla.com/es/home</a></div><div>15:31 < j1mc> i don't know about this, either ... i'm not sure if this is the right way to go, and i don't want people to be driven into anything.</div>
<div>15:32 < Rocket2DMn> It would be nice to have a portal like that to different documentation sources</div><div>15:32 < Rocket2DMn> i'm not sure we can get away from shipping docs at this time, we don't even have a framework for posting translated docs online yet</div>
<div>15:32 * j1mc nods</div><div>15:32 < Rocket2DMn> it was brought up in earlier discussions about doing that though, which i think would be great</div><div>15:33 < Rocket2DMn> if that proves to be effective and maintainable, we might be able to look at moving away from shipping docs in 12.04</div>
<div>15:36 < j1mc> i'm not sure what else to say on it for now... i think that having a stronger, more interactive web presence for help would be good, and it sounds like people are agreeable to it</div><div>15:36 -!- Rocket2DMn [~connor@ubuntu/member/rocket2dmn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]</div>
<div>15:36 < j1mc> it's just a matter of criteria and resources</div><div>15:37 < j1mc> other thoughts on this for now?</div><div>15:37 < philbull> The Mozilla offering looks good (SuMo)</div><div>15:37 < philbull> and it would be nice to have the community wiki docs and official docs available from the same interface</div>
<div>15:37 -!- Rocket2DMn [~connor@ubuntu/member/rocket2dmn] has joined #ubuntu-meeting</div><div>15:38 < j1mc> one thing about SuMo is that they release weekly</div><div>15:38 < j1mc> so it's a bit of a moving target. although it's open source, i don't know of any other groups that are using it.</div>
<div>15:39 < j1mc> i wish we could have a hackfest to work together on this.</div><div>15:40 < j1mc> philbull: i'll put our notes together and get them out on the mailing list.</div><div>15:40 < philbull> great, thanks j1mc</div>
<div>15:40 < j1mc> ok... next topic</div><div>15:40 < j1mc> [TOPIC] server docs</div><div>15:40 < MootBot> New Topic: server docs</div><div>15:41 < j1mc> the server team had a meeting where they asked about the update to the server docs</div>
<div>15:41 < j1mc> adam sommer and the server group are interested in the format similar to <a href="http://docs.openstack.org">docs.openstack.org</a></div><div>15:41 < j1mc> and i'm going to get a test build together this week.</div>
<div>15:42 < j1mc> aside from getting confirmation from the server group, nothing too knew to report on that for now, though.</div><div>15:42 < j1mc> s/knew/new</div><div>15:42 < j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog</div>
<div>15:42 < MootBot> New Topic: docs team blog</div><div>15:43 < vtanthropologist> are you talking about having two different sites? a SuMo-like help site and a openstack-like docs site? isn't that overkill?</div>
<div>15:43 < vtanthropologist> sorry. I missed the topic change</div><div>15:44 < j1mc> vtanthropologist: good point. as a short-term thing, i think having the server docs in a nicer format would be good.</div>
<div>15:44 < j1mc> if we have the build tools available, and we don't have to change the server docs too much, i think it's ok to go ahead with at least a draft attempt at the new layout.</div><div>15:45 < vtanthropologist> so SuMo is a long-term vision? but you're talking about 12.04</div>
<div>15:45 < j1mc> i think so</div><div>15:46 < j1mc> right now, we don't have much in the line of support for web resources, so ... that will take more time to sort out, i think.</div><div>15:46 -!- leoquant [~leoquant@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.active.leoquant] has joined #ubuntu-meeting</div>
<div>15:46 -!- leoquant [~leoquant@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.active.leoquant] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]</div><div>15:47 < vtanthropologist> it seems like too many conflicting focuses to me</div>
<div>15:47 -!- leoquant [~leoquant@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.active.leoquant] has joined #ubuntu-meeting</div><div>15:47 < j1mc> it's a lot of work, yes</div><div>15:47 -!- leoquant [~leoquant@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.active.leoquant] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]</div>
<div>15:47 < j1mc> what do others think?</div><div>15:48 < charlie-tca> Can I throw my two cents in?</div><div>15:48 < Rocket2DMn> i think i got confused on our topics - are we talking about the blog or about a new web interface to the docs?</div>
<div>15:49 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: we went back to the web-talk, sorry about that</div><div>15:49 < j1mc> charlie-tca: sure</div><div>15:49 < charlie-tca> I have been using Ubuntu/Xubuntu for about 6 years now.</div>
<div>15:49 -!- Guest4037 [~<a href="mailto:janc@ip-81-11-189-57.dsl.scarlet.be">janc@ip-81-11-189-57.dsl.scarlet.be</a>] has quit [Quit: Bye!]</div><div>15:49 < charlie-tca> I have been helping with support in IRC for about three</div>
<div>15:50 -!- Guest4037 [~<a href="mailto:janc@ip-81-11-189-57.dsl.scarlet.be">janc@ip-81-11-189-57.dsl.scarlet.be</a>] has joined #ubuntu-meeting</div><div>15:50 < charlie-tca> I do think having the docs on the web would be at least as helpful as on the CD, since most people will not look for docs anywhere but online</div>
<div>15:50 < charlie-tca> The first thought in today's world is "google"</div><div>15:51 < charlie-tca> and google seldom says "look at your computer"</div><div>15:51 < j1mc> :)</div>
<div>15:51 < charlie-tca> Even when wireless fails, people do not look at their installed system for docs.</div><div>15:51 < charlie-tca> Thanks for letting me say it.</div><div>15:52 < j1mc> thanks, charlie-tca </div>
<div>15:53 < j1mc> do other people think the short-term look at redoing server-docs, but progressing toward long-term getting the web-help in shape would be a good direction to go?</div><div>15:53 < j1mc> or is it a conflict of sorts?</div>
<div>15:53 < j1mc> i know it's a lot of work.</div><div>15:53 < Rocket2DMn> i dont thikn that conflicts, the serverguide is already online-only</div><div>15:54 < Rocket2DMn> but i think we need to continue shipping desktop docs for now</div>
<div>15:54 < Rocket2DMn> people still report bugs about using the desktop help, so people are definitely using it</div><div>15:54 < j1mc> :)</div><div>15:54 < j1mc> others?</div><div>15:54 < Rocket2DMn> (on their systems that is)</div>
<div>15:54 < vtanthropologist> if the server docs will be minimal effort, it's probably ok, but I thought it would make more sense to put effort into one site and build it out for the other components as we can</div>
<div>15:55 * j1mc nods... </div><div>15:55 < j1mc> i'll get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.</div><div>15:56 < j1mc> i think this level of agreement is ok for this meeting though.</div>
<div>15:56 < j1mc> [AGREED] jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.</div><div>15:56 < MootBot> AGREED received: jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.</div>
<div>15:56 < ScottK> Please don't break the existing server guide. It's pretty good.</div><div>15:56 < j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog - for real</div><div>15:56 < MootBot> New Topic: docs team blog - for real</div>
<div>15:56 < j1mc> ScottK: it'll stay in the same format. same docbook.</div><div>15:57 < j1mc> ScottK: we'll talk more later</div><div>15:57 < j1mc> mdke emailed canonical RT about <a href="http://docs.ubuntu.com">docs.ubuntu.com</a></div>
<div>15:57 < j1mc> but we haven't heard back</div><div>15:58 < j1mc> any comments on the emails that went out about this?</div><div>15:58 < Rocket2DMn> do other teams have a dedicated blog?</div><div>
15:59 -!- Guest4037 [~<a href="mailto:janc@ip-81-11-189-57.dsl.scarlet.be">janc@ip-81-11-189-57.dsl.scarlet.be</a>] has quit [Changing host]</div><div>15:59 -!- Guest4037 [~janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting</div>
<div>15:59 -!- Guest4037 is now known as JanC</div><div>15:59 < j1mc> i know that the server team does, and i think a11y does, too.</div><div>15:59 < j1mc> there might be more</div><div>15:59 < j1mc> design team...</div>
<div>16:01 < j1mc> perhaps talk on this more once we hear back from RT?</div><div>16:01 < stgraber> edubuntu does as well. QA too, release team too, ...</div><div>16:02 < j1mc> ok... we'll wait on this a bit.</div>
<div>16:02 < j1mc> i know we're just over our hour, but can we still talk about the wiki?</div><div>16:03 < Rocket2DMn> i'm available if other teams dont have this time slot reserved</div><div>16:03 < j1mc> ok - we'll try here... </div>
<div>16:03 < j1mc> [TOPIC] Wiki cleanup</div><div>16:03 < MootBot> New Topic: Wiki cleanup</div><div>16:04 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: you had some good comments on the ML about this. </div><div>16:05 < j1mc> have you had additional thoughts about it? anything you'd like to add?</div>
<div>16:05 < Rocket2DMn> i've spent some time over the last couple of weeks deleting a lot of old wiki pages</div><div>16:05 < Rocket2DMn> we could use help updating pages and/or tagging pages that need work or just need to be outright removed</div>
<div>16:06 < j1mc> i think that would be a good start</div><div>16:07 < Rocket2DMn> I have a question though</div><div>16:07 < j1mc> would anyone be available to get the word out about this request?</div>
<div>16:07 < j1mc> sure</div><div>16:07 < Rocket2DMn> some pages that are translated into other languages are marked for deletion</div><div>16:07 < Rocket2DMn> Do we support translated pages on the community docs?</div>
<div>16:07 < Rocket2DMn> I don't think it's the correct place for them, but I've never gone out of my way to manage them</div><div>16:08 < j1mc> good question... i would guess that the language coverage is pretty spotty, too.</div>
<div>16:08 < Rocket2DMn> it is, I'm not sure how well the pages are maintained either</div><div>16:09 < j1mc> is there an example page that you could point to?</div><div>16:09 < j1mc> how do you know if a page is translated?</div>
<div>16:09 < Rocket2DMn> <a href="https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NlBluetooth">https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NlBluetooth</a></div><div>16:09 < Rocket2DMn> <a href="https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RussianDocumentation">https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RussianDocumentation</a></div>
<div>16:09 < Rocket2DMn> etc</div><div>16:10 < j1mc> thanks, Rocket2DMn. </div><div>16:11 < j1mc> should we bring these up on the ML? </div><div>16:11 < j1mc> i would feel bad about just deleting them, but we have no idea what they say, and i doubt they receive much of a review.</div>
<div>16:11 < j1mc> or i have no way of knowing if they are reviewed</div><div>16:12 < Rocket2DMn> ML is fine with me</div><div>16:13 < vtanthropologist> can a deleted page be restored or do you delete the history too?</div>
<div>16:13 < Rocket2DMn> they can be restored</div><div>16:13 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: do you have a blog on the planet? can you post about how to tag pages as outdated / needing review / recommended for deletion, or just point people to those pages on the wiki that describe how to do it?</div>
<div>16:14 < vtanthropologist> ok, so worst case if you don't get a response on the ML, deleting it should bring anyone that's been using it out of the woodwork</div><div>16:14 < Rocket2DMn> j1mc, i don't keep a blog</div>
<div>16:15 < j1mc> ok... i can blog about it.</div><div>16:15 < Rocket2DMn> vtanthropologist, if they are subscribed to the page, they should get an email</div><div>16:15 < j1mc> Rocket2DMn: could you send a note out to the ML about the translations?</div>
<div>16:16 < j1mc> (the wiki pages that have been translated)</div><div>16:16 < Rocket2DMn> yeah</div><div>16:16 < j1mc> ok. :)</div><div>16:16 -!- IdleOne [~idleone@ubuntu/member/idleone] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]</div>
<div>16:17 < j1mc> [ACTION] connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages</div><div>16:17 < MootBot> ACTION received: connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages</div><div>16:17 < j1mc> [ACTION] jim to blog about tagging wiki pages</div>
<div>16:17 < MootBot> ACTION received: jim to blog about tagging wiki pages</div><div>16:17 < j1mc> anything else for today?</div><div>16:17 < Rocket2DMn> i dont have anything</div><div>16:18 < vtanthropologist> nor me</div>
<div>16:18 < j1mc> okies... thanks for joining all. :)</div><div>16:18 < j1mc> enjoy the rest of your sunday, wherever that may be.</div><div>16:18 < j1mc> #endmeeting</div></div>