Fwd: Mono (Re: New Programs for Hardy?)

[Martin Owens]

I'll have to answer some of these in the wrong order, and I've put it
back on list since it's an important thread regardless.

> I for one am done with this conversation.  You just don't seem to get
> it.  I am not sure why you  refuse to listen, but please, find another
> windmill OK?

This is a discussion, not a preaching session. bullying, braying and
ignoring what the other person is putting across don't make for good
solutions. your angry because instead of meeting all of my objections
with counter arguments your forced to sulk. If your going to involve
yourself in discussions can you have the stamina to argue properly?

> Yes it does.  It requires that the foundation be in place so these types
> of applications can flourish.  Having programs already built on those
> foundations sends the message that the water is fine, come on in.

No it doesn't, this is an obsession with attracting windows
programmers who would be quite happy for their program to lean of non
default mono dependencies. I feel your using this argument as a crutch
in place of something of substance. I repeat that it is not the job of
the default install to cater to developers. It's to serve ubuntu
users.

> You are arguing some someone who is pissed off that their pet
> project was not included, and you worked so hard on
> it.

Ah yes you noticed that, funny I've never tried to get it into the
default install because 1) it's not ready (alpha) and 2) most of it
will go into hal and you'll be including it anyway. I'm am glad you
went fishing for excuses though, nice to be proven right.

> But joe sixpack expects the functionality to be there.

You know I hate that term, it's so American. anyway, I find most of
the users your talking about don't get a computer and decide to
install ubuntu from the CD. more likely they are to have a friend of
variable skill who "knows something about computers" to install it and
anything else that joe uses.

> You are also confusing support simplicity with transition simplicity.

I snipped this entire section, OK I'm more concerned with serving our
existing user base than I am about attracting new users. This is where
a lot of distros go wrong, they get obsessive about attracting new
users and it leads to some unfortunate side effects. You remember what
gimmicks are right? well don't let ubuntu be the linux for gimmicks.
 because all the developers care about is hauling new users in. If we
look after our existing users by solving some of their real problems,
new users will come of their own accord.

> That must be priority, nothing else.

A very dangerous way to think, so black and white and yet so
ferocious. I'm reminded at this point about how many of the developers
on this list are either dealing with real deployments or spend time on
ubuntu forums. They think your ignoring their problems. And wouldn't
you just go and prove them right with tunnel vision comments like
that.

Kevin, I don't mind if your angry and in a sulk about this thread, you
shouldn't be. nor should you expect everyone to agree to the same
things. But we need to at least reach a point where we agree to
disagree. We obviously have different focuses in both how we serve the
public and the best ways to encourage participation. I'm quite happy
to discuss all of these things with you.

Regards, Martin Owens