EC Request for Consideration: WikiSite and current wiki edit projects

[Jordan Mantha]

On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Ace Suares <ace at suares.an> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> As told before, I have no wish to keep WikiSite for real content. It was
> just needed (and is needed) for a good cleanup. I agree to - in the end
> - only use it for includes etc.
>
>> /Edubuntu/Meeting/<year>/<date>
>
> I think it's *very* much work to move the current structure (/YYYYMMDD)
> to /YYYY/MM/DD) and I am not willing to take up that task. It serves no
> purpose other then to align with the Mobile Team, which is in no means a
> special team where others should align too.

I was just suggesting to categorize by year only, so all 2009 meetings
would be in the same "directory" so it would be /YYYY/YYYYMMDD for
instance. That part isn't critical, I agree.

> So I am willing to move the Meeting substructure one level up, which
> means leaving out WikiSite, but that's it, if some one want to rename
> all the pages to YYYY/MMDD than feel free!
>
>>  * the Archive page would just move it to /Edubuntu/Meeting/Archive
>
> agree
>
>>  * /Edubuntu/Meeting have the cool <<Navigation(children)>> (thanks
>> Ace for that) but not include every log inline.
>
> agree on the inline logs.
>
>
>> However, I think Tasks, Teams, Gatherings, Photo, Video, and
>> GrowEdubuntu belong somewhere else. I think that it is important the
>> wiki.ubuntu.com be kept as a development wiki. I'm not sure where
>
> Moving these things FROM the wiki so the wiki will be a pure development
> wiki is IMHO a bit too early. I suggest that I move on to clean up the
> website AFTER the clean up of the wiki as to not drown in non-critical
> gibberish. So, I can agree with moving these things OFF the wiki when we
> are restructuring the website. For now, I propose they stay where they
> are (in WikiSite). No sense in moving them when they are gonna be
> removed anyway.

That makes sense.

>> might be to simply put together a sitemap of the current wiki pages. I
>
> It's easy: Just got to https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubunt
> or do a title search on Edubuntu.

Well, I'm thinking more along the lines of hierarchy we want to create
and what areas need cleaning up. For instance, there are quite a few
redirects out there that tend to muddle up a title search. We used to
have several top-level structures like Devel, Community,
Documentation, Meetings and Wiki. It would be useful, IMO, if we
figure out that top level organization so that we have places to clean
up, put pages, and be more consistent.

>> know there are ~ 300 pages, but I think it would help us organize, and
>> help Ace continue his work, if we knew what structure was already out
>> there. We can then decide what we want to keep, what we can toss, and
>> where new pages (like Gatherings, Photo, and Video) should reside. I
>> think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Wiki/SiteMap is a start on
>> something like that.
>
>
> I think that you are making the procedure much too complicated, and also
> that you are micromanaging me.

My intent was not to micromanage you. We have 300+ pages and the wiki
is quite a mess. It would be good to make sure everybody is on the
same page and that we have an understanding of the end-goal we're
shooting for.

> I did several proposals where i asked you to comment on pages that might
> be deleted, but you (or anyone else) never answered.

I've tried to do my best to answer your questions. I was moving and
starting a new job so for a while I had no internet, etc. We do have a
general lack of "voices" around here and so I'm trying to drum up some
interest.

> If you really think you need to manage all steps that I do, then I am
> definetely resigning as of now. I welcome the 'big picture' ideas but
> what use is it to make a list of all pages (it's already there and I
> looked through it a dozen times) and then wait for you (or EC) to decide
> what needs to go, if this takes another month or two.

The intent was not to manage, but rather to encourage and give advice.
The Edubuntu Council represents several years worth of experience with
Edubuntu and Ubuntu policies, culture, and technologies. I was trying
to engage in helping things along because I saw you weren't getting
much response.

> Looka here:
> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval
> It's up there since July 24.

Right. But now that I've tried to help get things moving along you
attack me for trying to "micromanage".

> Hey, Jordan, I know, it's hard to get an overview of the whole Wiki.
> Trust me, I spend 40 or more hours looking through the wiki and
> categorizing stuff and forming ideas about how to deal with it. I
> outlined the ideas on several occasions. No matter what I do, you want
> it done differently. This ain't working.

I've spent the last 4 years working on this stuff. A lot of your work
is good. I'm just trying to save you some time and effort. I'm trying
to give you some guidance. I'm trying to move things along.

> * I agree on removing the WikiSite (at least as a final step in the
> cleanup process).

So you want to move everything into WikiSite/ then delete the rest of
Edubuntu/ and then take WikiSite out?

> * I agree on drawing your (EC) attention to pages I want to move or
> delete where there is any doubt.
> * I agree on reporting on what I deleted or moved so you can check and
> make corrections (after the fact, not beforehand).
>
> I don't know what else I can do to make you feel that you can leave that
> task to someone else (i.e. me).
>
> If you can't delegate the task, then I might as well stop working on it
> and wait until you find someone who wants to do the work your way.

I can delegate the task. But I want to make sure things are getting
done in a way that 1) is the best for Edubuntu 2) is maintainable 3)
is a good use of resources.

> I am by no means trying to make this personal but I am outraged that a
> task that would take me three weeks at most has now evolved into a
> discussion of months.

Frankly I'm slightly outraged that you expect to just come here and
move our entire wiki around without listening to the people who have
written and relied on it for years. Right now if I go to try to work
on the wiki I'm not sure where to put things or if they're going to
get moved/deleted. I love your enthusiasm and your willingness to take
on a difficult and mundane task, but I wish you would have a little
more respect for those of us who have been involved with Edubuntu for
a long time. I don't expect you to always agree or just do exactly
whatever I say, but I do expect that you will show respect to the
people who've created the work you're messing around with.

> Please come up with a good 'greater picture' and let me do the work. I
> think we have most of the greater picture already. Renaming all the
> meeting logs is just not constructive. Moving stuff off the wiki but we
> haven't' restructured the website is counterproductive. What else is
> there that needs to be addressed?

My intent was that we'd all share in the work as a group. I still
don't have a clear picture of what exactly you're doing/going to do in
terms of the larger picture. You've been marking pages for deletion,
and you moved the meeting logs. Is there a larger picture goal in mind
here? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/WikiSite/NewStructure doesn't
give much idea.

>
> PS Sorry to mingle in EC affairs.

This isn't just an EC affair. My goal with the EC Request for
Consideration was to address the specific stuff that was blocking your
work so that we can all just move along and get more work done. I know
you don't want to waste your time and neither do I.

-Jordan