seed changes

[Jani Monoses]

> Just for the record: *you* started the war by reverting the seeds
> without speaking of this here first. ^_~

I spoke 5 days before reverting but had no answers from you, see 
yesterdays mail.

> 
>> So please refrain from perpetrating bogus ideas such as the above.
> 
> * I justified the changes, just re-read your mails (yeah, that could be
> hard, but try, no, really, try again...):
>   - gnome-screensaver has a huge security issue when xfwm4 compositing
> is enabled, and thus won't be seeded in xubuntu. Since the *only* active

compositing is not enabled by default. Are you really saying that for 
this feature that is not default and is more appropriate for high 
resource machines you are throwing out a prefactly valid app which has 
benefits to all users?

> xubuntu bugtriager (Jérôme) resigned thanks to you, this won't be
He resigned by his own choice, I cannot force anyone to do anything. I 
am sorry that his idea of open source development is to go away instead 
of answering when asked to justify his actions.

> forwarded upstream. And if you want to be useful, please don't produce a
> buggy patch containing big layering violations (such as your thunar
> patches) which is gonna be rejected by upstream as usual, just forward
> this issue upstream...

Give me a break. That was the only way to get the features I wanted.
Without it you cannot eject using the tray button. Feel free to fix it 
better and wait till upstream adds it to a new version and then upload 
it to Xubuntu. Until then do not break existing stuff.

When you think exo-mount does the same as gnome-mount then talk. I am 
not sure why Benedikt is still using exo instead of switching to 
gnome-mount. One reason is that when he started g-m had libgnome deps 
and that was valid. You could ask him if you're more involved upstream.

>   - gnome-mount does not integrate well with thunar/exo (double
> combo-box problem for example). Same issue here, it seems you are able
> to skip the explanations only to start your little war.

I saw that problem and I would rather fix it ( I actually hoped that was 
what you and Jerome was going to do during hardy) instead of going back 
to exo mount. Unless it improved since 7.10 it is a step in the wrong 
direction.

>   - xfce4-taskmanager: not buggy anymore since I reverted your broken
> upload, and it does integrate well with the rest of the xfce desktop.

How does it integrate well? It is an independent app. With this I only 
had one problem, it is less featureful and unmaintained, lack the 
cpu/mem/ other system usage counters that gnome-system-monitor has.
Again I suppose your change was purely ideological. I remember during 
7.10 people voted for including it when I proposed it. Your change wss 
not backed by anyone on this list. You did not ask.

> 
> That's the main changes, and I already justified them.
> 
> We already agreed on some other changes:
> * gnome-games: I'll put them back when you stop playing with the seeds
> * squeeze/file-roller: squeeze is currently broken, so I'll put back
> file-roller.

And xfmedia. So that makes three changes made without thought and when I 
reverted them you accused me.

And had I not brought this up the seeds would have been the same.
> 
> But, I say it again, I'm just repeating what I wrote in previous mails
> (which you probably skipped on purpose).
> 
>> This being said, if I get no clear answers and truly open development 
>> I'll take this before the Ubuntu Community Council and ask everyone 
>> involved to attend. This is not just about Xubuntu, it is about ignoring 
>> fundamental principles of open development that govern the Ubuntu community.
> 
> Whoa, you are kidding, right? But please do it, I guess that'll be funny.

I am not kidding. I am adding this to the next CC agenda unless you 
start asking for others opinions about the apps you changed *now* 
instead of dismissing the issue. I was planning on inviting
> 
> Some random points:
> 
> * open development process: coming from you, that's only a huge
> mascarade. May I remind you that you _never_ listened to Gauvain and I,
> even when we were taking car of all the packaging stuff? It seems you
> have the ability to ignore people who do not agree with you (especially
> when we talk about upstream)...

Point me to a ml-thread (we did not talk in private) that proves I 
ignored you and I'll publicly apologize to you anyone who feels 
affected. Until you can back it up please refrain from accusations.
I not listening is not the same as you not having your way. I do not 
remember ignoring anything. So give me a link or a few links or stop this.

> 
> * support: same here, you never supported any xubuntu release. You
> haven't even touched an xfce package for ten months, except to broke
> xfce4-utils screensaver support in gutsy. Security-support? LOL. I did
> the only xubuntu security upload ever (xfce4-terminal). Actually, there
> are two CVE waiting for you (2007-6531 and 2007-6532). But one more
> time, you prefer mailing stupid things rather than helping me.

Exactly. That is why Xubuntu does not have support guarantees, let alone 
long term support. I never claimed I made such uploads so I am not sure 
what are you complaining about.
So Xubuntu is not an LTS. I did not say anything else.

> 
> Thus let's go before the Motu Council if you want (xfce is in universe
> now, so this should be raised at first before the motu council and not
> the Community Council imho).

Community Council. This is not about universe packaging or technical 
issues, but abuse of open development rules, being hostile and 
misleading. In other words about behaviour.


> 
> You are just gonna waste everyone's time: xubuntu iso are still
> completely broken, no more bug triaging occurred since, no time for
> security-support, thank you very much!

I am not wasting anyone's time. ISO, bugtriaging or anything else can go 
on as planned. Aside from my changing the seeds in the middle of ISO 
builds (did it interrupt a build or was that too stated for dramatic 
effect?) and asking for debate about selected apps everything else is 
normal.
Even more there should be more time for maintainers as squeeze and 
xfmedia are no longer needing care. Actually all my changes would have 
resulted in more focused and less amount of work for the developers.

> 
> This is my last mail on this ML until you keep on "perpetrating bogus
> ideas" (sic). See you on the motu-council thread.

Refusal to talk is also a reason for going to the CC. Did you see the 
"+1 for explanations" mails that were sent by others yesterday? You can 
ignore me if you think I behaved inappropriately but as the current 
leader of Xubuntu you have to answer them.

Jani