[UbuntuWomen] Sites and site edits

[Clytie Siddall]

I found your post very interesting, Séb. :)

On 19/03/2006, at 12:43 PM, Sébastien Nicouleaud wrote:

> I believe that having official chans managed by official Ubuntu  
> members
> is very important. Because, when not, channels can be managed by  
> anyone,
> without consideration for the representation they give to users  
> (through
> their behaviour).

This is indeed important. Anyone can call a channel "ubuntu-x", which  
in users' minds, definitely gives the impression that this channel  
represents the Ubuntu project. It must be very difficult for the  
projects to deal with this situation. :(
>
> I will take the example of the #debian-fr (unofficial) chan, which was
> one of my worst IRC experience. I once saw a guy insulting a novice  
> girl
> asking for help on the #ubunfu-fr (unofficial ?). For no visible  
> reason.
> Ops take a long time to react (despite some users asking them to make
> him stop), and finally kick-banned him from the chan. But the girl
> already left, because she just couldn't stand it.

That's dreadful. I hate to see people discouraged like that. Being  
put-down and destructively criticized has a limiting effect. People  
lose confidence, and believe they are capable of less. The younger  
you are, the more damage is done. :((

OSS should be about blooming, not blighting.
>
> Then, connecting to #debian-fr, I realize that the same guy was op on
> this chan.

Oh, no!

> I started a private conversation with another op of the
> #debian-fr chan, telling him the story. The op answered me he didn't
> care. He then started "making fun" (something stronger would be more
> appropriate) of me on the chan, saying that #debian-fr was not debian
> (so how can they just use the name ?!). I and some others were  
> insulted
> by quite a lot of the chan users ("ubuntu is for noobs, debian is for
> men" and all that sort of nonsense).

It's so stupid, but at the same time, hurtful. Nobody should be  
treated that way.
>
> I love Debian, I use both Ubuntu (since 1-2 year) and Debian (since  
> 4-5
> years).

Yes, and you shouldn't have to choose between them, or feel put-down  
for using any system. I use Mac OSX, my chosen system after 30 years  
using and teaching the use of just about every kind of computer and  
system, and I occasionally encounter some unpleasant behaviour about  
my choice in the i18n lists (this is occasional: the lists in general  
are very pleasant). It is assumed, somehow, that if you translate a  
certain system, you will also run it. I translate for a very large  
number of projects, and I simply don't have the room to run even a  
quarter of them. Yet, when I remind people of that, or ask if there  
are ways for me to test my translation on my system, occasionally I  
get that sort of behaviour, putting me down for my choice of OS  
(which wasn't even the question). It happened again this week. I  
don't see where this is useful in any way. And I object to it.

> And although this chan is not Debian official, lots of french
> Debian (and Ubuntu) users just don't speak english, and so this is the
> only vision they have of the Debian (french) community, which is not
> acceptable to me.

I agree. We have a different problem, but I think it's related. The  
vast majority of Vietnamese people online are very young. Often, they  
are young people "caught between cultures", and their behaviour can  
be very inappropriate. This discourages adults, especially older  
adults, and women, from participating online. Respectful behaviour  
with one's elders, and polite and considerate behaviour with women,  
is central to our culture. The Net is so different from our culture,  
which is still a feudal one, based almost entirely around the  
extended family. Talking familiarly with strangers, or near- 
strangers, which is what you do all the time online, is not provided  
for in our culture. We simply don't have a way to do it. (It would  
take a while to explain this: most of our communication is family- 
based, and we have specific pronouns whicih describe relationship.)  
These issues are not resolved. I have plenty of personal contact with  
other Vietnamese women, via email and chat, but I haven't met, in all  
my projects and time online, _any_ other Vietnamese woman who  
function publically online, like this. :(  It's very lonely.
>
> I was also unable to report this to the debian side, since I didn't
> found anything related to IRC behaviour (and abuses) on the Debian
> website, which I believe would be useful

I agree. A code of conduct is essential.

> (some people don't know the
> Freenode website, and will look at the distro website when facing  
> such a
> problem).
>
> Once again, it is not Debian specific. I also regularly saw some,
> generally less serious, abuses on #ubuntu-fr. But their number and  
> their
> repetition are significant. Even if the #ubuntu-fr is (in my opinion)
> the most tolerant french-speaking chan I know for novices.

i mentioned on Debian-Women once, when the same topic came up, that I  
had spoken to my son about it. He's a mature-age student, doing his  
computing degree, and a Debian evangelist, um, proponent. ;)  He runs  
a Debian-help IRC channel. I asked him about behaviour of this kind,  
and he said it was almost endemic. He refuses to tolerate it on his  
channel, and as long as people are willing to do their own work (as  
opposed to the kid who comes online and asks you to do his homework  
for him, or the person who refuses to read any information), he's  
very willing to help them. But he says this problem is really wide- 
spread on other channels. :(
>
> A friend of mine (long time Debian/IRC user) also told me once that  
> the
> IRC french community was the worst (compared for example to
> english-speaking chans). And the more chans I use, the more I agree  
> (and
> I'm really not proud of it).

No, it's really sad. Our central VNOSS community is very good, well- 
run and responsible, well-behaved, but that's nearly all due to the  
efforts of a very few people. The mass of users is almost children  
running wild. Not the image we want for our community. :(
>
> I have not been using IRC anymore since it happened (I'm too much
> disgusted for now).

I can understand that. In any case, we spend our voluntary time where  
we feel it's worth while.

> That's also my main reason for joining this
> mailing-list. I used to believe that "separating" women from average
> users was not a solution. But today, I hope this to be a way for  
> them to
> be confirmed in the community, and to change this state of mind (which
> will be profitable not only to women users, but to every people that
> believe in an helpful and tolerant community).

Thankyou for your support, Sébastien. We certainly don't want to be  
segregated, but many of us do need the support, to create change.

from Clytie (vi-VN, Vietnamese free-software translation team / nhóm  
Việt hóa phần mềm tự do)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/vi-VN