Ubuntu installers?

[Little Girl]

Hey there,

M. Fioretti wrote:

>On Mon, Jan 09, 2023 14:03:06 PM -0500, Little Girl wrote:
>> >Little Girl wrote:
>> >> Owen Thomas wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > with the hope that users generally will coalesce around Snap
>> >> > as the universal format.

That wasn't from me.

>snap, snap, snap... why?

Someone mentioned it as a direction that some development is heading
and also that Ubuntu created a Snap flavor.

>If I missed certain answers, please pass me the corresponding URLs in
>the list archive. But MY explicit questions here may all be summed
>as follows:
>
>1) Why the hell all this talking (only) about snap? It almost seems
>done on purpose to ignore the actual issues I've already described in
>this thread, after posting a link that apparently nobody bothered to
>read.

I couldn't resist participating in that part of the discussion
because any piece of utilitarian software that makes itself known to
me in an irritating way on a regular basis is worthy of a bit of
antagonistic poking. Others also couldn't seem to resist jumping in.
I don't think any of us were trying to detract from the original
topic, but just forked it off in a related direction. The rest of the
messages that didn't talk about it are still there, but nobody has
replied to those yet.

I would love to read your content, but that's an unfamiliar URL and I
don't click those. You might get more clicks if it was on a universal
platform. I don't speak for everyone, though. I'm just cautious about
which sites I visit.

>What I am actually sick and tired about is this: that I have to use,
>every year more frequently and in ADDITION to snap, flatpak and what
>not: Cpan to install Perl code, pip to install Python code, gem to
>install Ruby code, nodejs for JavaScript and so on.

I don't mind that. What I mind is the conflicting information out
there when I try to figure out how to use the available tools. That
particular predicament causes a situation in which one either has to
do lots of additional research to reassure oneself that one has found
The One True Way or one has to roll the dice and take a chance by
following one of the instructions one got. Either one isn't an ideal
scenario for a seasoned user, let alone a newcomer.

And back to the Snaps, I also mind having a packaging platform shoved
down my throat rather than either being made optional or being made
properly and being invisible so that I don't have to notice it.

>Because of the "have to" part. Almost never it's NOT **my** choice,
>it's because the latest STABLE (stable, OK?) version of some package
>ONLY comes by CPAN if it's Perl, ONLY by pip if it's Python and so
>on, and for USERS this is a cretin annoyance to live with, not
>choice nor progress for sure. And it may surely be my fault, but I
>do not see any answers to THIS in all the talks about snap vs apt,
>apt-get etc and being "free" to choose among THOSE package managers

There won't be a solution in an operating system such as Ubuntu.
That's because Ubuntu is all about freedom and it's for anyone and
everyone. That has to include those developers who are going their
own way.

The only way you could find a solution would be to find an operating
system that chooses one way of doing things and refuses to allow
other types of software on board. This would severely limit what you
could use such an operating system for, though.

Or perhaps you could find an operating system that designs some sort
of interface that can intelligently navigate all the possible
platforms that are out there and handle them for you invisibly,
although writing and maintaining such an interface would be
next-to-impossible and/or a nightmare, because all of these platforms
are transforming all the time, so a dedicated team would need to
actively stay on top of it for it to be viable.

>Will all those snap/ACID efforts magically make developers STOP
>making their software only available as pip, gem, cpan etc...
>packages because snap will have become much better for THEM?

I'm not an Ubuntu developer (nor a developer of any other operating
system), but as a user, I've seen it happen countless times where a
developer doesn't feel like jumping through the hoops required by an
operating system for including their software in its repositories, so
they simply don't do it and, instead, create a PPA and/or make their
software available for direct download as .deb files or whatever from
their own sites (which is a risky way for us to get software). As a
result, I suspect that similar alienation would happen if Ubuntu
and/or other operating systems were to tighten up their requirements
by insisting that developers can use only specific software.

The developers create or use those package-management platforms for
their own convenience. It's what they're used to using, it's
comfortable for them, and it (hopefully) checks all their boxes, which
other platforms might not.

I think we can all identify with that. We each have preferred pieces
of software, whether they're text editors, browsers, image viewers,
file managers, etc. They're what we prefer, they're what we're used
to, and we're comfortable in using them. If someone were to come
along and say we're no longer allowed to use them and must now use X
piece of software instead, we'd be likely to resist that and possibly
outright refuse, especially if X piece of software is missing
features we need or makes them inconvenient to use, etc., etc., etc.

I'm not trying to defend the issue, but just see it for what it is.
The genie is out of the bottle and it's doubtful we'll be able to put
it back in. All we can do is find ways to live with it.

My method of living with it is to try to be as selective as possible
in creating my little computing environment, to document as much of
it as possible as accurately as possible in my own personal wiki,
and, finally, to occasionally grumble about the parts of it that I
can't satisfy or customize. Conversations like this one provide a
nice opportunity to get in a good grumble. The grumbling doesn't make
it any better, but it sure feels good.

-- 
Little Girl

There is no spoon.