Community Council, please take action!

Alan Pope alan at
Wed Jan 6 13:18:37 UTC 2010

Hi Res,

2010/1/6 Res <res at>:
> Not unfair the world is at all, don't go putting words in my mouth, its all
> about how unfair the list nazis here play selective enforcement of the CoC
> and you damned well know that its about that.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You've been venting recently that
any kind of moderator action action against you would be unfair
because it wouldn't tackle the issue of the 'list nazis' (as you put
it) [a phrase which is pretty distasteful to be honest]. I was merely
pointing out that this list isn't a place for you to vent about such
issues. Yet I've seen numerous mails from you complaining about the

>> Should it be deemed necessary to contact individuals directly to
>> request they self-moderate, or forcibly moderate or remove individuals
>> then the CC will have no issue doing that in order to make this list a
>> more pleasant and useful place.
> Well bring it on, seeing as how you admit you intend to do nothing about
> the self appointed net cop breachers of the CoC, everytime one of those
> fools breaches I will make it my aim to remind them, if the people
> officially responsible here will not.

I did not 'admit' that 'we/I intend to do nothing about the self
appointed net cop breachers'. I lumped _everyone_ together. Anyone who
acts in a way which makes this list an unpleasant or unusable resource
would seem to me to be breaching _some_ kind of rules - were they
documented somewhere (see below).

Now, here's the tricky thing. We don't have specific rules for this
list. We have the mailing list etiquette page and the code of conduct
which in and of themselves are sufficient in my mind to guide users of
this list into a way of working that is respectful of others. That
goes for people causing issues, and people constantly badgering others
for transgressing rules as well - "list nazis" as you call them. The
irritation of having people shouting their mouth off is comparable to
having someone constantly replying to threads telling people not to
top post.

>> It would be much more productive if this thread ended now, and we get
>> back to providing respectful support to users.
> you make absolutely NO comments on regards to the general breaches of
> your CoC.

The paragraph starting "Should it be deemed " was general and not
specific to any individual or breach.

> So I think we know exactly where this is going, a show that the community
> council is biased,

Biassed towards whom? People who like to ask for help and reply to
threads without feeling the need to insult others by calling them
"incompetent" and "incapable", yup, you got me there.

> incompetent, and incapable of ensuring an even playing
> field for everyone and anyone, it appears by your statement the CC
> condones the selective enforcement of the CoC,  how very hypocritical,
> but thank you alan at least now I know the sort of idiots that are
> responsible for this place, and this should be a warning to ANYONE who
> considers making a post here, of course unless they are part of the incrowd
> net-cop list nazi squad where they are permitted to berate top posters but
> yet may themselves breach the CoC without fear of reprisal. I will also
> make it aim to ensure those considering singing up here are well aware of
> the facts, the entire emails between the CC and  myself will be made
> available to the public so they may judge for themselves.

That's not the case. The facts are:-

* The list is a resource provided by the Ubuntu project, by Canonical
for the purposes of allowing users to get support
* We have no official moderators who currently read and analyse each
mail and act on breaches of the list guidelines
* It has had no overall moderation for basically ever
* The list has evolved into what it is today, with the people self-policing
* Some people self-police better than others
* Some people don't like being policed
* Some people didn't read any guidelines (mailing list etiquette, Code
of Conduct) before they signed up, so feel they should not be bound by
* Some people believe that everyone should be bound by those documents
whether they read them or not
* Numerous people have complained

So that's where we are, what do we do?

It was discussed recently by the CC and we came to the conclusion that
we should look for interested people on this list to become moderators
who could help bring the list back to where it should be.. "Ubuntu
user technical support, not for general discussions". We should also
draft usage guideline for this list which would include details of the
process which can be used when breaches of the
guidelines/etiquette/CoC happen. That could range from "A polite word"
to "marking a user as moderated" to "removing the user". These are all
functions which happen elsewhere in the Ubuntu community (forums and
IRC come to mind) so there's no reason it shouldn't happen here, and
no surprises to anyone that it might be implemented.

For what it's worth, I completely agree with you that any kind of
implementation of "The Rules" (how ever you interpret that) should be
applied fairly to all concerned. That's what happens on the forums and
IRC and I see no reason for it not to be the case here. However right
now, this minute, we don't have moderators and we don't have specific
process for dealing with people who breach the rules for this list.

What we _do_ have is the Code of Conduct and the mailing list
etiquette page, and I'd respectfully request that you - and everyone
else - take a look at them and look again at your own replies and
think about whether they meet those minimum standards.

> I'm now glad we have this out in the open for all to see what a
> hypocritical joke this place is.

Other resources are available.

> Now the truth about you has been established, feel free to remove me
> anytime you wish.

I wasn't planning on 'removing' you, I don't actually have the ability
to do that.


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