'Tone of the list' discussion

[Preston Kutzner]

On May 14, 2009, at 5:41 PM, marc wrote:

> Apparently the Ubuntu community is incapable of
> self-moderating the list, otherwise Oliver wouldn't be tasked with
> finding people willing to moderate the list.

That's a non sequitur: We don't know the reason for Oliver's activity.

I believe he did state, if not in this thread, at least in another,  
that he was asked by the current Ubuntu moderators to find others who  
would be willing to more actively moderate this list, as they  
currently don't have the time or resources to do so themselves.  He  
referenced the "Inappropriate tone..." thread, in which I believe is  
where he mentioned why all of this has come up.

>> I personally find it poor form to harp on Oliver for
>> not wishing to re-post information that has already posted.
>
> Oh for heaven's sake, Now you're having a go at me for asking a  
> question
> of someone whom I know knows the answer.

I was just stating the fact that you were having a go at Oliver for  
not re-posting information.  I know he knows the answer, but I guess I  
don't see it as justifying being harsh to him if he doesn't wish to re- 
post it.  I guess I'm used to other mailing lists (OpenBSD is  
notorious for it) where other posters frequently reply with a curt  
"search the archives" and that's that.  Sometimes you do get pointers  
as to where to find the information as well.  A lot of the times,  
however, if the information has already been discussed, a lot of  
posters don't want to post it again.  I'm not in any way saying that  
it's the right way to do it, but I believe that they have a point  
sometimes, that readers of the list are expected to due their due  
diligence in trying to find the answer before coming to the list to  
ask.  Yes, it would be nice were he to re-post (and at least he did  
post a link on where to find the answers you were looking for), but if  
he doesn't, I don't see where it's a reason to be down on him for not  
doing so.

>
>> Yes, he
>> could do so and save you the work of looking through past posts,  
>> but you
>> are perfectly capable of using the tools that are available to get  
>> that
>> information as well.  You possibly could have already gotten that
>> information in the time it took you to post this reply complaining  
>> about
>> him not just handing you the information.
>
> And this is courteous and following the CoC?

I was just pointing out the fact that while yes, he could be nice and  
just re-post the information, it appeared in your previous message  
that you had spend a bit of effort complaining about the fact that he  
didn't re-post it.

>> In light of all that has been said, I do find it encouraging to see  
>> that
>> some people on this list are willing to do some work to find answers,
>> albeit grudgingly.
>
> Dude, I spent all of yesterday debugging packages. I've raised a large
> number of detailed bugs against Jaunty over the past few weeks -  
> both on
> launchpad and kde.org - and you're implying I'm lazy in the context  
> of (K)
> Ubuntu. Guess I'm going to be playing more golf in future!

How am I supposed to know what you were doing yesterday?  Or that you  
are an avid bug filer.  I do know now, and I definitely respect people  
like yourself who do so.  But with that information, you obviously  
know your way around the community well enough that if an Ubuntu  
leader states that he doesn't wish to re-post the information again  
and that it's available in the archives, you know exactly where to go  
to find it.  I still don't understand the harshness (or at least  
perceived harshness) directed at Oliver for not re-posting, and that  
was the point I was trying to make; that, if a person doesn't want to  
repeat themselves and the information is readily available in another  
place, why come down on them for not wanting to re-post.

Ultimately, my previous reply was just a reaction to what I read as a  
post coming down on another poster for the simple fact that they  
didn't want to repeat themselves and you wanted them to, because it  
was easier for you to get that information that way than to go back to  
the archives and search for it.  I'm not arguing the point that it  
really would've been easier, just that it the tone of the post came  
across such that you did wish to be lazy and just have him hand you  
the information again.  I'm not implying that this was actually what  
you were trying to convey, and I sincerely do apologize if I came a  
cross as an ass about it.  I do apologize if that was / is the case.   
This whole thread is about the "tone" on the list (amongst other  
things) and I was responding to a tone that didn't seem to be  
compatible with what this community is trying to achieve.

Again, my sincerest apologies if I came off as an ass, I do admit I  
tend to sometimes.  I do know you're an avid contributor to this list,  
and I do, as a reader, appreciate your input into it.

-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?