'Tone of the list' discussion

[marc]

Preston Kutzner said:

> On May 14, 2009, at 4:30 AM, marc wrote:
> 
>> Oliver Grawert said:

First off, the quote is mine not Oliver's!

>> I don't believe that anything has been proven. I think this list
>> behaves
>> like many others I've observed and participated in over the years.
>> Where
>> there is a common purpose, then things tend to be calm, when there are
>> divergent options then personalities express themselves; sometimes wods
>> are spoken.
>>
>> No amount of moderation - other than full, which would kill the list
>> completely - will stop that, and I believe that it's naive to believe
>> otherwise. I mean head-shakingly, goggle-eyed, staring at the floor
>> naive. But I understand politics too.
> 
> I would have to disagree with you on this one.  I only speak for myself,
> but I do not believe the list would be killed if there were full
> moderation.  It might cause it to atrophy a bit, but I don't believe it
> would be completely killed.  I personally would prefer moderation in
> this list, because it is very apparent that a large number of users
> (possibly just a vocal minority) tend to not follow the rules of conduct
> for this list.

I just don't see this behaviour, though. That's what I'm arguing against.

> Apparently the Ubuntu community is incapable of
> self-moderating the list, otherwise Oliver wouldn't be tasked with
> finding people willing to moderate the list.

That's a non sequitur: We don't know the reason for Oliver's activity.

> I don't understand the current aversion in this list to making sure
> people read and follow the code of conduct.  It's ultimately the reason
> why the Ubuntu team is looking to moderate this list.

I'm not sure who that's aimed at. We all benefit from folk behaving in 
the expected way. And for heaven's sake, it's not rocket science:

  Bottom post. Switch off HTML. Trim. And be nice.

>> Thanks for the link, but I still think that you are being less than
>> forthcoming with the information. I feel that if you wanted to be fully
>> inclusive, then you would be willing to provide unambiguous information
>> about the discussion to be had. For whatever reason, you are not doing
>> that.
> 
> If the information has already been posted to this list, in a previous
> thread, why should Oliver be required to re-post that information again
> in this thread?

Because I asked and I believe that to be the courteous thing to do. 
That's what I do. That's what others do.

> The list does have a searchable archive and the
> information can be obtained by using it (or through your own email
> client, if you have been on the list long enough and keep your own
> archive of posts).

I don't keep archives, it's redundant. And yes, I can search.

> I personally find it poor form to harp on Oliver for
> not wishing to re-post information that has already posted.

Oh for heaven's sake, Now you're having a go at me for asking a question 
of someone whom I know knows the answer.

> Yes, he
> could do so and save you the work of looking through past posts, but you
> are perfectly capable of using the tools that are available to get that
> information as well.  You possibly could have already gotten that
> information in the time it took you to post this reply complaining about
> him not just handing you the information.

And this is courteous and following the CoC?

>> Nevertheless, I'll wade through the multiple links you sent to uncover
>> the information. It doesn't have to be this hard, you know.
> 
> In light of all that has been said, I do find it encouraging to see that
> some people on this list are willing to do some work to find answers,
> albeit grudgingly.

Dude, I spent all of yesterday debugging packages. I've raised a large 
number of detailed bugs against Jaunty over the past few weeks - both on 
launchpad and kde.org - and you're implying I'm lazy in the context of (K)
Ubuntu. Guess I'm going to be playing more golf in future!

> As the adage goes: "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man
> to fish, feed him for a lifetime."

Pah! <plonk>

-- 
Best,
Marc

"Big change requires small steps."