Breezy upgrade question

Eamonn Sullivan eamonn.sullivan at
Mon Oct 17 16:52:57 UTC 2005

On 17/10/05, Derek Broughton <news at> wrote:
> Eamonn Sullivan wrote:
> > On 15/10/05, Derek Broughton <news at> wrote:
> >> Eamonn Sullivan wrote:
> >>
> >> > No. You *will* have problems if you try installing without these basic
> >> > packages. Why not install them, upgrade and then switch back to Exim
> >> > and Abiword?
> >>
> >> Ye Gods!  They are NOT basic.  OO provides absolutely _no_ functionality
> >> required by anything else (I use it and love it, but it is certainly no
> >> requirement for Ubuntu).  And imo, Postfix is serious overkill for the
> >> typical ubuntu user.  I use Masqmail.  imo, ubuntu-desktop should
> >> _recommend_ postfix but _require_ mail-transport-agent.
> >
> > Yes, I understand that, but these are basic parts of Ubuntu. I believe
> > the developers are working on some more granularity with the packages,
> > but essentially what you are doing is running your own distro, using
> > Ubuntu as a starting point. That's fine -- I'm all for it -- but if
> > you want to piggy-back your distro on Ubuntu, you need to at least be
> > running it when you do a dist-upgrade. No big deal: Temporarily
> > pretend you want to run Ubuntu, install ubuntu-desktop, upgrade, then
> > customize.
> I still completely disagree.  In the first place (and I've been meaning to
> file a bug about this), the package description for the *ubuntu-desktop
> packages says that you're welcome to remove the meta-package.  I already
> had an Xorg bug marked "Won't Fix" because causing the problem required
> removing ubuntu-desktop, but that means either the *-desktop packages need
> fixing or the xorg bug is genuine.
> Secondly, these are _still_ not basic parts of ubuntu.  Ubuntu _requires_ an
> MTA.  It does NOT require either OO or postfix - except in the dependencies
> for supposedly non-mandatory metapackages.
> >
> > If Abiword is removed in the process, you don't lose any of your
> > settings. Once up and running, reinstall abiword and off you go... I'm
> > having a hard time understanding why people get a bit upset by this.
> > Run a distro that uses just abiword then.
> I don't get upset at the upgrade process - I removed kubuntu-desktop and
> keep upgrading easily.  I get upset at the mentality that says you have to
> play the game by my rules, using my ball and wearing team uniforms.  That's
> _not_ the Linux way - and it clearly isn't the way envisioned by the
> *ubuntu-desktop developers.

Really, the level of concern I have about this could fit on the head
of a pin. All I'm pointing out to you is that you're asking for a
flawless upgrade of thousands of complex programs. It ain't easy. By
suggesting that any combination of programs be flawlessly upgraded,
you're asking for the developers to solve something that is
essentially infinitely complex, because you want abiword and exim. All
I said at the start is that you can expect lots of problems that way.


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