Ubuntu is under attack (longish)

[Anders Karlsson]

On 12/19/05, Old Rocker <old.rocker at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> I download Kubuntu because I prefer the KDE desktop, and also want to
> run some Gnome applications, but not the whole of Gnome.  I go to the
> repositories and find I cannot download the Gnome desktop without it
> taking out KDE.  So I try to download individual packages, then find
> some will install but others won't as the basic dependencies are not
> present and won't be installed. (This is my experience).

How about "apt-get install gnome-core gnome-desktop-environment" ?

I did it the other way around, installed Ubuntu, then installed
kubuntu-desktop and I find that works a treat.

> So I add the Debian repositories to my apt-get sources.list and from
> there I download Gnome packages that refuse to run under Kubuntu
> because there is an incompatibility between the Debian and Ubuntu
> versions. (Again my experience).

And you headed straight for the gun-foot option. Unless you know
exactly what you are doing, don't add debian repos to a Ubuntu
install, as you will most likely break things.

It amazes me how many people seem absolutely desperate to edit
sources.list to include random Debian repos, when almost all packages
are available in the Ubuntu repos.

> So I ask that the necessary changes be made in the content of the CD to
> allow packages from both the major desktops to be installed.  You can
> install Kubuntu packages from within Ubuntu, but I can't find any way
> of installing Ubuntu packages from within Kubuntu.  Now if I can't
> download packages and their dependencies, unless only those within the
> Ubuntu repositories, Ubuntu is not keeping to the spirit of the Debian
> system and is in danger of becoming a fork rather than contributing to
> it.  It is also reducing my range of choice in the matter.

Ubuntu and Kubuntu are in essence *the* *same* *distribution* but with
a different skin. All packages from Ubuntu are available in Kubuntu,
and vice versa. They are not two different distributions, just two
facets of the same distribution.

> Mike Bird's very eloquent complaints about the MTAs is a case in point.

Nope.

> Somebody, somewhere, has decided that MTAs should be changed.  As
> postfix et al were in Hoary, they were presumably part of the one-disc
> distro that gave everybody the ESSENTIAL packages that reinforced
> security.  Without any warning, these packages are not installed with
> the Breezy CD, and for some leave a security hole.  I'm not sure if
> these packages are in the Breezy repositories, but suppose for a moment
> they are not, where are you to get them and be sure they work (remember
> these are security packages)?  From Debian?  They MIGHT work properly,
> but again they might not, and as Ubuntu is not 100% Debian compatible
> at present, surely steps should be made to ensure that packages in the
> Debian repositories work with Ubuntu?

As I said in a previous post, I run postfix, I rely on it being
available, I installed Breezy from scratch, I still have Postfix
available as it is is the repository.

As for "surely steps should be made to ensure that packages in the
Debian repositories work with Ubuntu" - why? If you want to run
Debian, run Debian!

> If that doesn't happen, Ubuntu will continue its progress and become a
> fork of Debian, which is the worst of all worlds.  So I am asking that
> the install disk should include dependencies and packages to all both
> Gnome and KDE to be downloaded, and to allow Debian packages to be
> installed and run to make sure this DOES not happen.

I don't get your, or Mike's, gripe. On one hand, you don't want Debian
for some reason, but when Ubuntu does not do exactly what Debian does,
there is something terrible going on and Ubuntu is under attack. On
the other hand, when you have installed Ubuntu, you are making every
effort to include as much of Debian as you can, editing sources.list
and installing this and that from the Debian repositories, and then it
is Ubuntu's fault when it breaks?

As far as I can tell, both the KDE and the Gnome side of Breezy works
very well, both are easy to install side-by-side. At the moment, KDE
suits me better, but in a month, XFCE might be what I am using, as
requirements change. I don't see any particular evidence of a "dumbing
down" of any desktop. They are getting easier to use, and more
polished, but since when has that been a fault? Anyone requiring a
hard-worked desktop, just install EvilWM or RatPoison and be happy.
*shudder*

--
Anders Karlsson <trudheim at gmail.com>