Ubuntu is under attack (longish)

[Peter Garrett]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:43:34 -0800
Mike Bird <mgb-ubuntu at yosemite.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 2005-12-17 at 22:04, Eric Dunbar wrote:
> > This discussion is more appropriate on sounder (hint).
> 
> No.  This is important.

I agree that this is important, entirely on-topic for the users list,
and should not be shunted off to sounder merely because it elicits strong
opinions.

Why it *is* important , though, is perhaps a bit more complex than at first
appears.

###A Few Notes (My intention being to clarify what we are actually discussing)


1. Perhaps people are discussing different things: -  thus

    A) One group of opinions might be (rather crudely) summarised as

   "My machine and desktop work just fine without mailx and postfix, so
it's a non-issue for me"  (valid for that user)

    B) Another group might be (equally crudely) summarised as

   "This functionality is part of of what makes Linux/Unix what it is, and
should be kept"   (very debatable - which is not to say unimportant,
right or wrong - just capable of much debate on different sides)

    C) A third group might be summarised as something like

   "By removing this functionality we are removing a crucial
diagnostic/security/administrative tool which should be there by default"

## Breaking it down

   A) "A" is quite true for many desktop users who are happy to rely on
Ubuntu to "just work" and have (relatively) little interest in what it is
*doing*  (Analogy - car driver who has a basic understanding of the engine
but doesn't need, or want, to be constantly informed of what that engine is
doing other than necessities (like oil gauges, temperature, fuel remaining
etc)

   B) At first reading the B) position might look  "conservative" or
"zealot-like" or "pedantic" depending on your point of view. I don't think
it is *necessarily* any of these - because the question "What is the
nature/personality/fundamental character of this OS?" Informs our uses of
it, and also it's discoverability in the deeper sense. There is also a
pedagogical argument here that is worthy of thought. 

I use the term pedagogical here in a positive sense.

  C) The C) argument is definitely important for systems, networks and more
complex uses of Ubuntu. Mike Bird has argued this position or something
like it forcefully, and I think on the whole credibly, as have others in
this thread

###Concluding

(Personal viewpoint - interpretation of the above)

First, it has become both a long and at times heated thread. This
suggests that many users feel strongly about it. If that is so, then it is
_ipso facto_ worth considering carefully

Second, it appears we are arguing at cross-purposes, because it is not
clear which of A) B) or C) each poster is actually discussing (insert D)
E)  ad-lib ;-)

Third, inevitably when people feel strongly they use emotive language. I
think that's fair enough - people have a right to feel strongly, and
emotive language is after all.. well,  umm, ...the language of feelings .
It does however sometimes take on the character of polemic to an
unecessary degree ;-)

This rather lengthy post is an attempt both to validate the particular
discussion, and, I hope, an attempt to ensure that we are actually
addressing the issues. It is also an approach to the broader issue of how
we discuss things. So in the broader context ths thread might be
considered symptomatic. I would suggest that we ignore symptoms at our
peril.

The fact that the thread concentrates on mailx/ MTA is in that sense
periphal to the question of how the distribution handles, and will in the
future handle, dissenting opinions, when they clearly are perceived by a
large number of knowledgable posters as worthy of comment and contribution.

Peter