[CoLoCo] LONG POST - Transcript of "sudo tutorial" chat in #ubuntu-doc

[TJ Heaney]

Excellent! We now have a possible cover image!

Now I just gotta check copyrights, etc.....

On Dec 20, 2007 10:22 AM, Ryan Taylor <rztaylor at gmail.com> wrote:

> found this:
>
> http://xkcd.com/149/
>
> It might help explain the "power of sudo" to those new Linux users...
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2007 8:26 PM, Brett Trigg < brett_trigg at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >  Hi There,
> >     Here is the advice I gained from the #ubuntu-doc forum on our "sudo
> > tutorial" idea.
> >     I apologize for the length of this post, but I think it contains
> > good info throughout.
> >     Feel free to lay the smack down on me for not editing.  Call it
> > "full disclosure"  :-)
> >
> > (07:23:55 PM) *btrigg:* Hi There. I'm on the Colorado LoCo and we have
> > been discussing a user-friendly and educational way to confront this issue:
> > http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54
> > (07:24:05 PM) *btrigg:* An idea we had was a sort of "sudo tutorial": A
> > graphical tutorial on fresh-installs that pops up and details the power and
> > danger of running commands as root prior to allowing any root commands to be
> > run.
> > (07:24:18 PM) *btrigg:* I was referred here from #ubuntu-motu
> > (07:24:29 PM) *btrigg:* Is this the place to find a champion for this
> > idea?
> > (07:25:40 PM) *somerville32:* btrigg, We already discuss the issue in
> > the shipped documentation
> > (07:26:23 PM) *oldmanstan:* btrigg: your goal is to make the issue real
> > obvious to new ppl?
> > (07:26:27 PM) *btrigg:* Understood. But our thought is that RTFM isn't
> > really that user-friendly.
> > (07:26:30 PM) *btrigg:* Yes.
> > (07:27:14 PM) *mpt left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection
> > timed out)).*
> > (07:27:20 PM) somerville32: Unfortunately, there is no way to fully
> > protect the user even if we forced them to try and read it
> > (07:27:22 PM) *btrigg:* Docs are great if you are looking for something.
> > If you don't know what you don't know, then docs aren't really that
> > effective.
> > (07:27:51 PM) *somerville32:* btrigg, You might want to look for the
> > people looking on the Welcome centre specification
> > (07:27:53 PM) *btrigg:* Agreed; we cannot save everyone from themselves.
> > (07:27:59 PM) somerville32: s/looking/working
> > (07:29:06 PM) *btrigg:* Ok, thanks, I appreciate that.
> > (07:30:36 PM) *btrigg:* The idea is that if we, as Ubuntu, provide
> > education, then the folks who choose to ignore it are out of luck. But we
> > can say that we do educate our users instead of just letting them hang
> > themselves or, worse, not letting them have enough rope to try.
> > (07:31:53 PM) somerville32: Sadly, I think most people would close to
> > pop-up anyhow or be scarred away
> > (07:32:02 PM) somerville32: First thing they see when their new OS boots
> > up:
> > (07:32:08 PM) somerville32: "DO NOT RUN THE FOLLOWING COMMANDS OR ELSE:"
> > (07:32:16 PM) *btrigg:* :-)
> > (07:32:24 PM) *btrigg:* Well...not like that exactly..
> > (07:32:28 PM) *btrigg:* More like...
> > (07:33:03 PM) *btrigg:* "As with any OS, there are dangers with
> > installing software from unknown sources"
> > (07:33:06 PM) *btrigg:* Etc.
> > (07:33:29 PM) *btrigg:* Please enter the root password to confirm you've
> > read this and continue installing.
> > (07:33:35 PM) *btrigg:* That kind of thing.
> > (07:33:43 PM) somerville32: lol
> > (07:33:54 PM) somerville32: We tell them not to randomly enter their
> > root password and then we get them to do it :P
> > (07:34:01 PM) *btrigg:* lol
> > (07:34:16 PM) *btrigg:* Well...this is still within the comfy confines
> > of their own system.
> > (07:34:33 PM) *btrigg:* And we'd give them an out for that.
> > (07:34:53 PM) *btrigg:* Have them enter the password and then choose to
> > continue or abort.
> > (07:35:12 PM) *btrigg:* Either way, the tutorial would be gone for good
> > going forward.
> > (07:36:28 PM) *btrigg:* You see where we're going with this, though,
> > right?
> > (07:36:55 PM) *btrigg:* Somewhere between man sudo and "allow or deny".
> > (07:37:54 PM) somerville32: "You attempted to close this window. Allow
> > or deny?"
> > (07:38:21 PM) *btrigg:* Right. The "You're an idiot. We know better"
> > Extreme.
> > (07:38:38 PM) *btrigg:* And the RTFM extreme on the other end.
> > (07:38:54 PM) *btrigg:* Somewhere between those two.
> > (07:39:52 PM) *btrigg:* We're looking at the: "It's your system. Here's
> > how to use it wisely" approach.
> > (07:40:29 PM) *btrigg:* If we came up with the text for it to be
> > reviewed would that help?
> > (07:41:19 PM) somerville32: Well, we can include it in the documentation
> > (07:41:33 PM) somerville32: :)
> > (07:41:45 PM) *btrigg:* Great, thanks!
> > (07:41:52 PM) kgoetz: i dont think more popups will go down well with
> > upstream/s. makin teh 'enter your password' dialguges more usful would be
> > better imo
> > (07:42:20 PM) *btrigg:* kgoetz: There's an idea
> > (07:42:38 PM) *btrigg:* Like maybe context-sensitive warnings?
> > (07:43:07 PM) *btrigg:* i.e. "rm -rf" can cause harm to your system type
> > of stuff?
> > (07:43:22 PM) somerville32: lol
> > (07:43:45 PM) *btrigg:* What? Why is that funny?
> > (07:44:03 PM) kgoetz: deja vu
> > (07:44:06 PM) kgoetz: just reading this
> > http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54 ;)
> > (07:44:13 PM) *btrigg:* Ah...yes.
> > (07:44:17 PM) kgoetz: "rm -rf /"
> > (07:44:22 PM) kgoetz: *grin*
> > (07:44:30 PM) *btrigg:* That's what started this whole discussion in our
> > LoCo.
> > (07:44:56 PM) *btrigg:* But you can see why we could be shooting
> > ourselves in the foot with this, yes?
> > (07:45:14 PM) *btrigg:* We may not have the virus issue, but social
> > engineering...that affects all of us.
> > (07:45:29 PM) *somerville32:* btrigg, How does Windows deal with it?
> > (07:45:32 PM) *oldmanstan:* btrigg: i agree
> > (07:45:46 PM) *btrigg:* somerville32: lol
> > (07:45:48 PM) kgoetz: problem is people get used to clicking 'close',
> > and the more you ask them to, the less chance there is they'll do anything
> > else
> > (07:45:50 PM) *btrigg:* "Allow or Deny"
> > (07:46:05 PM) kgoetz: windows's i've used havent *heh*
> > (07:46:24 PM) oldmanstan: the key is people have to realize that they
> > need to read at least a little about their new os
> > (07:46:41 PM) *michael_mac [n=michael_ at adsl-4-54-25.bhm.bellsouth.net]
> > entered the room.*
> > (07:46:42 PM) oldmanstan: what about doing a screencast on "the dangers
> > of sudo", talk to alan pope in #ubuntu-uk and those kids
> > (07:47:00 PM) *btrigg:* oldmanstan: Agreed. But really..who reads docs?
> > (07:47:02 PM) *jgoguen left the room (quit: "'rm -rf /' will solve all
> > your problems...").*
> > (07:47:15 PM) oldmanstan: yeah, that's why a screencast might be good
> > (07:47:17 PM) *btrigg:* oldmanstan: Awesome, thanks.
> > (07:47:37 PM) oldmanstan: then throw it in people's desktops by default
> > with a label saying "click here first!!!" or something, haha
> > (07:47:42 PM) *michael_mac left the room (quit: Client Quit).*
> > (07:47:47 PM) *btrigg:* We are just looking to give some education.
> > Maybe (pray) that it will reinforce the idea of reading the fine manual.
> > (07:47:58 PM) *btrigg:* lol. Yes. Great idea, though!
> > (07:48:15 PM) oldmanstan: yeah, i agree with your mission 100%, it's a
> > tough task though
> > (07:48:19 PM) *btrigg:* And...it can showcase the multimedia spiffiness
> > of Ubuntu.
> > (07:48:29 PM) *btrigg:* Great. Thanks.
> > (07:48:31 PM) oldmanstan: indeed
> > (07:48:35 PM) ***kgoetz finds the forums post a bit alarmist
> > (07:48:43 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. It is tough. But I think it's the right
> > thing to do.
> > (07:48:44 PM) oldmanstan: add it to the lovely nelson mandela video
> > (07:48:47 PM) kgoetz: for thos who can download vidoe of course
> > (07:49:11 PM) *btrigg:* It is a bit alarmist, but I also think it has
> > the chance to become an "I told you so" topic.
> > (07:49:27 PM) oldmanstan: we could get it preinstalled with the distro
> > possibly
> > (07:49:37 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. That's the idea.
> > (07:49:51 PM) *btrigg:* The "Click Me First" idea is wonderful.
> > (07:50:00 PM) oldmanstan: it's a balancing act between scaring the crap
> > outta people and informing them
> > (07:50:06 PM) *btrigg:* Yes.
> > (07:50:16 PM) *btrigg:* Windows just assumes they are stupid.
> > (07:50:19 PM) *btrigg:* We are not that.
> > (07:50:38 PM) *btrigg:* That's why people like Macs and Linux. Freedom.
> > (07:51:12 PM) kgoetz: macs for freedom? bs.
> > (07:51:13 PM) *btrigg:* But with freedom come responsibility. And if
> > someone doesn't say: "Here is one of them. You can find more here...", then
> > they can be scarred for like.
> > (07:51:15 PM) kgoetz: but thats an aside
> > (07:51:35 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. But that's a reason whether we like/believe
> > it or not.
> > (07:51:45 PM) kgoetz: i'll point out that video is huge, and the discs
> > are squeezed for space as is
> > (07:52:00 PM) *btrigg:* Flash video? Should be smaller?
> > (07:52:09 PM) oldmanstan: or dump the mandela video
> > (07:52:38 PM) *btrigg:* Or a Presentation file?
> > (07:53:05 PM) oldmanstan: ogg videos aren't "huge", the mandela one that
> > we install is only 3.5 mb and it's a minute and a half
> > (07:53:33 PM) kgoetz: so 3 minutes of video is 1% of the cdrom.
> > (07:53:44 PM) oldmanstan: like i said, dump the mandela video
> > (07:54:17 PM) ***kgoetz mutters about vim-tiny's presense on the cd.
> > perhaps that carp can go
> > (07:54:23 PM) *btrigg:* lol
> > (07:54:27 PM) oldmanstan: and make it a minute and a half, kind of a
> > "don't do drugs kids" warning thing and our net space on the disc is zero
> > (07:54:39 PM) oldmanstan: haha
> > (07:55:00 PM) oldmanstan: even if it wasn't on the cd though, it could
> > still be featured prominantly
> > (07:55:08 PM) kgoetz: i still think the improving dialges holds merit
> > (07:55:11 PM) kgoetz: *sp (again :$)
> > (07:55:12 PM) oldmanstan: i think more people will watch a video than
> > will read a document
> > (07:55:21 PM) *btrigg:* Yes. Like a link to a hosted video on the net
> > somewhere?
> > (07:55:23 PM) kgoetz: depends where said person is located
> > (07:55:42 PM) *btrigg:* Subtitles
> > (07:55:42 PM) oldmanstan: yeah, it wouldn't have 100% penetration, but
> > it would be something
> > (07:55:45 PM) kgoetz: (i already have that issue with ubuntu install
> > 'extras')
> > (07:56:08 PM) oldmanstan: changing the dialogs is definitely a thing to
> > bug people about too though
> > (07:56:18 PM) *btrigg:* Agreed.
> > (07:56:26 PM) oldmanstan: a video could be made easily with minimal
> > bureaucracy though
> > (07:56:35 PM) *btrigg:* So how do we get this started on our end? Write
> > the text?
> > (07:57:10 PM) oldmanstan: i would talk to the screencast ppl, i'm not
> > sure if they have their own channel, but i know alan pope hangs out in
> > #ubuntu-uk and he's in charge of it
> > (07:57:15 PM) *kgoetz:* btrigg: email the mailing list with a proposal
> > (07:57:16 PM) *btrigg:* I know a guy who does a GREAT Mandela
> > impersonation...he could read it. And then we could keep the Mandela aspect
> > and still give the safety warning. :-)
> > (07:57:28 PM) oldmanstan: lol
> > (07:57:29 PM) kgoetz: call it a 'spec' for bonus poits ;)
> > (07:57:31 PM) *btrigg:* Just kidding about that. Sorry.
> > (07:57:40 PM) *btrigg:* kgoetz: Ok, thanks much again!
> > (07:57:41 PM) oldmanstan: kgoetz: good point, people love "specs"
> > (07:57:59 PM) kgoetz: oldmanstan: canonicals projects in particular :)
> > (07:58:05 PM) oldmanstan: fer sure
> > (07:58:29 PM) *btrigg:* Make it a business case type spec? More formal =
> > more consideration?
> > (07:58:31 PM) oldmanstan: all about the launchpad
> > (07:58:42 PM) kgoetz: yep.
> > (07:58:42 PM) somerville32: omg, lmao
> > (07:58:57 PM) ****somerville32* swats btrigg with a fanny of ubuntu cds
> > (07:59:06 PM) *btrigg:* :-)
> > (07:59:13 PM) *btrigg:* Ok...so I'm a noob dork.
> > (07:59:20 PM) oldmanstan: honestly i would informally approach a couple
> > ppl first, and then work on formalizing it
> > (07:59:22 PM) *btrigg:* But why smack me?
> > (07:59:28 PM) oldmanstan: but that's how i like doin stuff
> > (07:59:36 PM) *btrigg:* Ok. And does that work?
> > (08:00:15 PM) *btrigg:* brb...bedtime for the nipper. :-)
> > (08:02:13 PM) kgoetz: :)
> > (08:02:22 PM) ***kgoetz hands over invoice to employer
> > (08:02:56 PM) *btrigg:* back
> > (08:02:58 PM) *btrigg:* lol
> > (08:03:38 PM) *btrigg:* Ok. Well thank you everyone for the input,
> > ideas, and advice. I will take this back to our LoCo and we'll go from
> > there.
> > (08:04:03 PM) *oldmanstan:* btrigg: #ubuntu-screencasts
> > (08:04:07 PM) kgoetz: :) good luck with it
> > (08:04:08 PM) oldmanstan: if you decide to go that route
> > (08:04:11 PM) oldmanstan: good luck!
> >
> >
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