Merges - Pinging Previous Uploaders

[Jordan Mantha]

On Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 02:45:06AM -0500, Ming Hua wrote:
> Disclaimer:  I was a non-DD Debian package maintainer before becoming an
> Ubuntu user and MOTU.  So my opinion is probably quite biased.
> 
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 02:48:49PM +0900, Emmet Hikory wrote:
> > On 7/14/07, Jordan Mantha <mantha at ubuntu.com> wrote:
> > > Other people's merges? Nobody "owns" anything in MOTU. We are a team. We
> > > take care of Universe and whatever needs to be done. MOTU is the
> > > maintainer, not individuals. If a merge is decently documented then there
> > > should be *no* problem with another MOTU merging it later on for the vast
> > > vast majority of packages. If there is then there's something else going
> > > wrong.
> > <...>
> > > People should be worried about *how* to get a merge done more than *if*
> > > they should do it. Honestly, MOTU is sounding more like a bunch of
> > > independent individuals than a team trying to rock the Ubuntu world. I
> > > think MOTU could face even more serious manpower problems if it continues
> > > to do so.
> > <...>
> > 
> >     Thinking about this as a larger issue, rather than just "How do we
> > ping?", I'd like to second Jordan on this.  The lack of a concept of
> > ownership of packages is one of the ways in which Ubuntu differs from
> > other distributions, and one of the things that makes us strong.
> 
> I've thought about the package ownership thing a bit in the past as
> well.  And it seems to me this is not a clean-cut thing.  I agree that
> lack of package ownership is one big way we differ from Debian, but I am
> not sure if the up-side always outweighs the down-side (I hope everyone
> agree there is a down-side).
> 
> Before I talk about my opinions, I'd like to point out a few more
> complicated situations than just "previous uploader".
> 
> 1. As already discussed on IRC, it can be that one developer merges a
> package, then someone else just adds a simple fix (typo, .desktop file,
> rebuild for transition, etc.), and become the "previous uploader".
> However the first developer is more familiar with the package.

This is one of the reasons I don't like the "last uploader" thing very
much. I'ts like the worst of both worlds. They aren't necessarily full-time
maintainer (as in Debian) but they might feel obligated (and perhaps not
work on packages they don't know very well) to keep track of the package
more than team maintenance usually implies.
 
> 2. Upstream, or Debian (co-)maintainer is the "previous uploader".
> 
> 3. Fixing mistakes in the previous merge or upload, like missing Ubuntu
> specific changes.
> 
> Now my personal take:
> 
> Based on my own experience, I am on Scott's side.  I've seen very good
> things happen with the MOTU's "no ownership" policy and the friendly and
> helpful atmosphere, and I agree with Jordan that working as a team is
> our strong point.  However, not every MOTU, or sometimes hopeful
> (reviewing a need-sponsoring upload you are not familiar is hard, and
> sometimes you miss things) cherishes the team thing, and sometimes their
> behaviors hurt others.

I personally think it's ok for people to make mistakes now and then. We can
usually fix them up without the world falling apart. If it's a consistent
thing then it's an issue and something that needs to be addressed. I don't
particularly want people who I can't trust to not be constanting doing bad
things, to be "owning" packages.
 
> As all of my Debian packages (the one I am maintainer or co-maintainer)
> are input method related, which is a rather less-known area, there are
> ofter special considerations and tricky things.  I've seen those
> packages updated in Ubuntu (either merging when a new dev cycle starts,
> or just newer -XubuntuY revisions) with questionable patches, which I
> would prefer to discuss before the upload.  I'm subscribed to bugmails
> of all those packages, but very few times such changes have a bug opened
> and debdiff attached.

I think this is where having a good relationship with Debian/upstream is a
good idea, make that essential. I've always viewed it as Ubuntu users get
the best packaging because they get the depth of Debian and the broadness
of Ubuntu. We should be relying on upstream. If something's really very
intrusive or not unique to Ubuntu we should be sending it upstream, right?
Just this week I was going to do a sync of tea and it FTBFS in gutsy. Turns
out it was because gutsy has libgtk+2.0 from Debian experimental which
included a function that was also in tea so there was a naming collision. I
asked the Debian maintainer what to do, and gave me some hints. We emailed
upstream and the same day there was a new tea release fixing the bug. Now
instead of doing a merge to fix something that only a problem in gutsy, I
get to do a sync.  That's the power I think we need to tap into more.

I also think we should have package "whiteboards" on Launchpad or
somewhere where we can put notes for each other.
 
> So I don't know.  Maybe we should find a way to put blame on people
> about improper merges/updates, and remove upload privilege of MOTUs who
> make too many mistakes (including careless review and sponsoring).
> Maybe I should learn to be more thick-skinned and don't feel hurt when
> such things happen.  Maybe I should either devote more time for Ubuntu
> to take care of my Debian package or shut up.

Heah man, we love you. /me hugs minghua
 
> That's all.  I am not very active in MOTU right now (mostly because busy
> at school, but the above experience is one reason), so take what I say
> with a grain of salt.  However I see Scott has been hard working to keep
> gutsy in shape, so everyone probably should listen to him more
> carefully.  I've always liked Debian's "it's the maintainer doing the
> actual work, so it's the maintainer's word that counts" attitude, so
> while attracting new blood is vital to a healthy MOTU team, keeping
> current members happy is important as well.  It's always about a
> balance, and IMO probably a hard one to keep.

Yes, I'm certainly in a similar situation. I'm certainly not wanting to
stand in the way of progress, but I would like to get us thinking a bit
about what's behind the "people keep stealing my merges" problem.

-Jordan