help.ubuntu.com Unable to do searching

Sun Dec 21 13:31:27 UTC 2008

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:19:22 +0100
Marko Oreskovic <markoresko at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dougie Richardson wrote:
> >> Users could be expected to enable javascript for *.ubuntu.com
> >> but since last update of help.ubuntu.com search dos not work
> >> unless user enables javascript form .google.com
> > 
> > The search is conducted by the above function, so without it
> > enabled it cannot work - Ubuntu isn't doing the search, Google is.
> 
> Since last month search was done exactly that way: Without Google
> scripts. And without throwing users back to Google every time he/she
> searches for Ubuntu documentation.
> And it worked like that for YEARS until last month.
> Last month someone suddenly decides that hepl.ubuntu.com will not work
> without google javascript...
> 
> I don`t see why we should not have old solution available.
> There is a solution available as I sended in quoted text.
> 
> >> Since most of the sites use google scripts it is out of question to
> >> require users to use google.com javascript because it would have
> >> negative impact on all user`s experience, security and cpu usage.
> > 
> > Can you qualify this? The script submits nothing not in the user
> > agent
> 
> No I will not. I said airier all about that.
> When I use Google.com it does not force me to use javascript at all.
> it is out of question to enable it for every single page on internet
> that wants to use it or pretend to use it.
> Anyway, see:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-November/012189.html

As I said, I've followed this thread and there is nothing of substance
in your remarks there either.

> > Disabling arguably the bet search algorithm available would
> > have a negative impact on our users.
> 
> Ok, untill this thing is solved I will not think of participation in
> Ubuntu documentation project.
> Also I will inform my LOCO about this.

Inform your LoCo of what? That you informed a group in the correct
manner, it was discussed appropriatly and hasn't been implemented to
your liking?

> > How is security affected? 
> Try to imagine that google scripts for Tracking users are enabled
> on every page on internet that uses them to make site statistics.
> Ok. Now why google should know what pages I am visiting?

Tracking cookies? I thought it was JavaScript?

> > CPU usage? Bandwidth perhaps minimally as there is a call to an
> > external script inline but not CPU usage - have you data to back
> > this claim?
> Calling ANY external script is Bad practice.

Are you seriously suggesting that code reuse is bad practice? Where is
this written down? Is there a standard? I mean there is an argument
that if one script is broken then many sites lose a functionality but
on the other hand a bug is rectified without many other sites having to
amend code. Beside, if Google has the code its their right to stipulate
its usage.

> I devoted my trust to .ubuntu.com and I will not be forced
> to trust anyone else's every-day changing scripts. I think I am clear
> here. Anyway, if I don`t use Noscript Extension, My every day
> browsing will be turned in the nightmare with all those flash and
> badly written javascripts all over internet. That is enough.

I wouldn't call it badly written javascript - a few more comments and
perhaps some more meaningful variable names but that would increase
size and then we're back to you efficiency problem.

> >> Could old search that was working for many years since last month
> >> be enabled again, for non-google-javascript users as workaround?
> > 
> > With respect, you are the only person to have mentioned this. Having
> With respect, go and play hide-and-seek with someone else.

Hide and seek?

> > followed this for some time, it reads that you have a personal
> > distain of Google which you haven't quantified.
> Ok, I will not quantify to you anything else.

Why? This isn't a personal attack and I cannot understand why you
take it as one. I asked you to quantify what the problem is and
you became defensive.

This only leaves me and others in the same position, without the
information to base a change. 

> Feel free to use google.com and google analytics scripts
> on all pages you use. I don`t care.
> I use google every day, I use gmail for non-personal things.
> But I will NOT be forced to use any software that tracks me on
> internet and that is not from ubuntu project. I think this is clear
> enough.
> > I don't mean to be negative but there is a strong argument for
> > Google: 1. Developing a search engine is time and resource
> > consuming.
> We had working solution since last month working well.
> Request is that help.ubuntu.com does not use google scripts for
> displaying results. Using google for search could be done on server
> side and NOT on client side.
> Request about not using google javascript on client side have nothing
> to do with question What search engine is used on server side.
> 
> > 2. Its reinventing a wheel and one that works very well at that.
> It is following Just right web site design recommendations.
> Also for stupid people, only one search engine in the world should be
> enough, right?

I didn't say that. I said that the Google algorithm is arguable the
most effective.

> Again, Noone of users cares/should care about what searching technique
> is used on server side.
> Displaying of search results is BAD.
> 
> > 3. The old search function was inadequate, especially for community
> > docs.
> Ok, Old search is superior. Security wise and community wise and
> better in any way. It looked better and worked not depending on any
> third party service, neither requests from user to use third-party
> software. Also new search forces user to go BACK to google pages
> so it does not stay inside help.ubunut.com site and that ruins
> user experience. Next time he will go to google to search
> and will not use help.ubunut.com at all. help.ubuntu.com becomes
> absolete.

This is purely subjective on your part. Personally I think you have a
point about the formatting of the results page, there is too much space
devoted to advertising.

Can you be more specific on what software you are running because I
don't experience the return to Google pages you mention either.

> And finally, try to go on https://help.ubuntu.com using your Firefox.
> (Make sure google.com script is enabled)
> Firefox recognize help.ubuntu.com as unsecure (displays "!" on the
> lock) Reason:
>  Connection Partially Encrypted
>  Parts of the page you are viewing not encrypted before transmitted
> over Internet.
>  Information sent over the Internet without encryption can be seen by
>  other people while it is in transit.

Not under Firefox 2.0 it doesn't. Are you sure this isn't relateed to
the change in recognised certificate authorities in Firefox?

> So using google com transmit my requests intended for help.ubuntu.com
> directly to third party over insecure connection and that further
> reduces user`s privacy.
> 
> > Merry Christmas,
> > 
> > Dougie
> > 
> >>> Matthew East wrote:
> >>> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Marko Oreskovic
> >>> <markoresko at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Dustin Kirkland wrote:
> >>>>>>> I have sent Matt a patch that will display the help.ubuntu.com
> >>>>>>> header, with search box, consistently with and without
> >>>>>>> javascript enabled. Hopefully he can apply it soon...
> >>>>> It seems that non-JavaScript solution still is not working.
> >>>>> (Not implemented yet)
> >>> It is now working for help.ubuntu.com/community (the wiki). Users
> >>> visiting the wiki without javascript enabled can use the search
> >>> bar.
> >>>
> >>> This hasn't been rolled out yet to help.ubuntu.com (the static
> >>> pages) because doing so requires a complete rebuild of the
> >>> website, which is rather time consuming. I haven't had a lot of
> >>> time recently.
> >>>
> >>> -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF 
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> 