CC meeting preliminary notes

Tue Oct 26 14:10:04 UTC 2004

On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 14:05 +0100, sparkes wrote:
> John Hornbeck wrote:
> > On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 08:15 +0100, sparkes wrote:
> >
> > I think you took my whole statement wrong. 
> My words also look a little strong on reflection and I apoligise if they 
> caused any offence but I stand by their meaning ;-)
> 
I respect your opinion, even though we may not be seeing eye to eye.  In
fact I think we are alot closer to the same idea, but that it is hard to
tell through written word.

> > I would like people to help
> > and contribute but I don't think a setting where "everyone" can
> > contribute is the right setting. 
> 
> Not sure we are speaking the same language here ;-) we are talking about 
> linux right ;-)  a community that came together, a meritocracy?  surely 
> everyone has an equal right to contribute and one or more act as editors 
> based upon their skills.
> 
We are speaking the same language, but we are also talking about docs,
and not kernel development.  We are talking a setting where everyone
thinks they can be a writer.  I personally want alot more than just a
wiki.  Everyone so far is very obsessed with doing just a wiki, but
where are we getting to?  Right now we have a mesh of docs, but are
struggling to get them in place.  We are new at this so it will take
time, but this is a problem that seems to be getting worse instead of
better.  If we don't start looking beyond wiki, we are going to be at a
stand still.

> > I wish to have people contribute and
> > work with people, and give them credit, but at the same time I like to
> > set my standards high.  
> 
> Everyone wants to keep standards high and that is an editing job, in 
> this case
> 
Yes, it is a editing job.  At the same time, if we leave a high priority
item just out there, it could fall apart and not be done by Hoary.

> > If you start with writing a book on a wiki, you
> > lose control right away.  
> 
> It really depends on what you mean by control.  Some things develop 
> better without formal control and others need some formal control.  I 
> think this project is somewhere in the middle.
> 
I think this serves better with more structure.

> > Even with freesoftware as a whole, you can
> > modify and do with it what you want but the developer still has the
> > final say when it comes to releaseing the actual product under its said
> > name.  
> 
> not as good an analagy as it looks on first inspection.  If a persons 
> patch isn't accepted in a freesoftware package but they believe it has 
> merit they are free to fork the project and include their patch.  If 
> others agree the fork has merit it survives, prospers and sometimes even 
> replaces the original project in the eyes of the community.
> 
We are talking about docs here,  if someone really wants to fork a book,
go ahead.

> Sometimes this is a bad thing, sometimes this is a good thing. 
> Sometimes it's a great thing for both projects (such as debian and 
> ubuntu) but in docs this would be a bad thing.  To have several people 
> working together as part of a community would be far better than having 
> one on their own.
> 
> A community effort such as ubuntu deserves a commnunity led 
> documentation project and that goes for printed docs as well.  Plus as a 
> thank you to debian I believe every effort should be made to make the 
> docs usable upstream as well.  I still think the debian/progeny guide is 
> the ideal starting point.
> 
The debian/progeny guide would be a great thing to bring into our
community.  If you would like to spearhead that, go right ahead.  What I
am shooting for is something different.  I would love to give as much
back upstream as I can.  I was the person who really started pushing to
fix the gnome-user-guide to make it better, but to keep it being able to
be put back upstream.  I would love to thank sivang for doing a great
job so far on this.

> I would be interested in hearing why you think it's not (as mentioned in 
> the other thread).  Plus it's available under a free licence and many 
> changes would benefit upstream.  Ubuntu is not an island it's part of 
> the debian family and I personally would like to contribute to works 
> that are part of our thank you to the debian devs that have made all of 
> this possible over the last 10 years.
> 
I want something different.

> > I am looking at a free license, I really like how "Free as In
> > Freedom", is done where it is all online but still a paper copy, I own
> > that book and have still read it online.
> 
> I should hope so ;-) you wouldn't get much support from  old debianites 
> in the ubuntu crew for just taking and not giving ;-)
> 
I am not just taking anything.  I think we really need to get in a chat
about this so we can better express our selves.

> > 
> > 	I am not trying to cut the "Ubuntu" out of this, but I feel writing it
> > on the wiki is the wrong place.
> 
> I see this entirely differently.  I believe you have to give some more 
> thought to how you are going to work on the book project to make sure it 
> stays a part of the community and not something on the fringes.
> 
> I agree that the wiki might not be the best choice.  Splitting the work 
> into chunks and keeping them in a subversion server might be better but 
> I do think community over the individual everytime
> 
> I could said yes to writting and unoffical book but choose to help the 
> documentation project instead ;-) I think you will have some difficulty 
> making both work.
> 
If you did not want to do a book for someone else that is fine.  We are
happy to have you help.  I think there have been a ton of books made
with group help but at the same time where keep out of "everyone's"
hands.  Most books by O'reilly are not done by people from the doc teams
of said projects.  These books are great and have helped tons of people.
Robert Love has written some nice books on kernel development, but he
did not do these on a wiki, and  they are still looked at as official
books for kernel dev.  I believe in making the docs the best that I can
and I also believe in sticking to a community the best I can.  Richard
Stallman is one of my biggest influences as far as the free software
world goes and you can't get much more free than how his views are.  I
think we are seeing different because of not having a way of showing
expression.  If I am wrong I am sorry, but in the end, no one ever sees
completely eye to eye.

> > 
> > 
> > 
> > John Hornbeck
> > http://hornbeck.freeshell.org/blogger
> > 
> sparkes
> 
-- 
John Hornbeck
http://hornbeck.freeshell.org/blogger