Python stuff

[John Richard Moser]

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Ivan Krstic wrote:
> John Richard Moser wrote:
>> How about relegating these to ubuntu-devel-python, and also spawning an
>> ubuntu-devel-c and ubuntu-devel-objective-c and ubuntu-devel-php and so
>> on?  It'd save on bloat.
> 
> Ubuntu is comitted to providing a complete Python development
> environment out of the box. It's a conscious decision, made without
> pretense of language neutrality, and it's very unlikely to change.
> 

A decision made by children who used to work for Microsoft and think
that doing simple things like sliding their products in under the rug
will gain them attention.

The reality is that most of your user base (i.e. non-developers) are
simply walking all over it.  It's bloat factor.  Ubuntu SHOULD be
committed to providing a set of useful applications and a robust end
user environment while minimizing the presence of excess software that
remains largely unnoticed by the typical user.

This is the same mentality that went into "Extend .deb to optionally be
able to use a LiveCD image to supply files removed from the .deb files"
versus "just package Live/Install on a 1.2 gig DVD image."  The devs
decided that extra bloat was worth it, and don't intend to change their
stance; as a result, 2 CDs get shipped for live/install, 2 ISO images
exist, and lots of mirror space is used.

It's the same childish mentality that will continue to go into "Every
user has 1 gig of RAM, so we should be able to write our apps to fit
into 1 gig of RAM;" sure it's true, but when you have 5-10 apps running
on a 32 meg system in 1996 and you're using 48M of disk swap, that's
just fine.  Come to today and you're using 512M-1G of disk swap, that's
not fine.

Bad assumptions, bad assumptions, bad assumptions.  Whoever decided to
put invisible packages that most users won't use on a desktop system
like Ubuntu is either not thinking, or very childish.  Let's poke the
site for justification:

   Ubuntu is a free, open source operating system that starts with the
   breadth of Debian and adds regular releases (every six months), a
   clear focus on the user and usability (it should "Just Work", TM) and
   a commitment to security updates with 18 months of support for every
   release. Ubuntu ships with the latest Gnome release as well as a
   selection of server and desktop software that makes for a comfortable
   desktop experience off a single installation CD.

A clear focus on the user and usability.  Putting random python packages
into the system does not beget the user and usability; it's just like
how Windows leaves random "Install and try AOL Today!" software laying
around even if the icons for it aren't installed.

   When you finish your Ubuntu installation your system is immediately
   usable. You have a full set of business productivity applications,
   internet applications, drawing and graphics applications, and games.
   That one CD gives you a very good desktop environment out of the box,
   with many applications for business, home and personal computer users
   installed by default. There are thousands of additional pieces of
   software that are just a few clicks away, but we've done the hard
   work to get the basics in place easily and effectively.

There's thousands of useful applications, and others are easily usable.
 The BASICS are in place easily and effectively.  Hint:  Development
environments don't count as "the basics."

This is a similar tactic to spyware or trojaning, except without an
active payload.  The basic idea of slipping something into the system
unannounced and secretly is there; just the part about it being
malicious is not.  If you don't believe me, then ask yourself:  WHY
DOESN'T UBUNTU ADVERTISE THAT PYTHON IS ALREADY THERE RIGHT ON THE SITE?
 Could it be that the Ubuntu Linux maintainers are HIDING it from
everyone except the inquiring minds?  Perhaps the thought of exposing
that "we're bloating the system because we like python" makes them
realize that competent users might find this just a LITTLE strange and
backwards.


Here's perhaps the most weighty argument, an admission on another
argument over whether C/C++ tools should be included:

  http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2004-September/000530.html

   The other 99.9% of people using the system... Are they all going to
   use GCC?

   Our desktop seed is meant to provide the greatest common factor of
   packages that will be used on a desktop machine. It's *not* meant to
   be a superdooper hacker workstation.

Prove that python development garbage is used by the greatest common
factor on desktop machines.  Until then your argument is fluff.

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