[Fwd: An MTA should be installed by ubuntu (was [ubuntu-users] Re: Ubuntu is under attack)]

[Tim Frost]

> ** Cross-posted to ubuntu-devel as well as ubuntu-users.
> 
> On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 20:42 -0800, Mike Bird wrote:
> > On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 19:20, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 10:01:15AM -0800, Mike Bird wrote:
> > > An out of the box Ubuntu install will not generate any email.
> > 
> > An out of the box Breezy install will try to generate emails,
> > but will fail.  There's no obvious indication that the emails
> > are lost.  In Hoary they would have been delivered.
> > 
> 
> As a specific example, cron uses /usr/bin/sendmail to send email, when a
> cron job writes to stderr or stdout (if the script does not redirect
> stdout/stderr to files).
> 
> As the run-parts script does not redirect stdout/stderr, I found a
> message in my mailbox today, after adding mailx/postfix, because one of
> the steps in cron.daily detected an error.
> 
> Now, I admit that most new users would not understand what is meant by
> the error 
>         /etc/cron.daily/man-db:
>         mandb: warning: /usr/share/man/man1/rmic.1.gz is a dangling
>         symlink
>         
> but the fact that the message was written to my mailbox after I
> installed postfix *proves* that a standard breezy install *does*
> generate (or at least *try to* generate) email messages.
> 
> Is Matthew saying:
> 1:  That cron should depend on mail-transport-agent (since it explicitly
> tries to invoke /usr/sbin/sendmail)
> 
> OR 
> 
> 2: That cron should NOT be installed in ubuntu/kubuntu
> 
> 
> Given that a large number of packages depend on the presence of cron, I
> caan't see option 2 being acceptable.  Given that, and the fact that
> cron expects to find an executable called /usr/sbin/sendmail, it follows
> that an MTA (a package providing mail-transport-agent), and a MUA (so
> that the admin user can read local mail), MUST remain in the default
> install for ubuntu/kubuntu.
> 
> Can we feed back to debian that cron should include mail-transport-agent
> in the Depends section (the breezy version states "Recommends: postfix |
> mail-transport-agent")
> 
> 
> 
> > > Nothing is discarded.
> > 
> > If you had checked before breaking things, you would know that
> > this is false.  See above.
> 
> cron output is discarded.  See above.
> > 
> > > If you install anything that generates email, then it is your 
> > > responsibility to ensure that you have something that will process that 
> > > mail.
> > 
> > Where is this new imposition documented?  Why make a change which
> > so directly conflicts with the goal that Ubuntu "Just Work" out
> > of the box?
> > 
> > > If it's considered a vital part of the package functionality, then 
> > > that will be described in the package dependencies.
> This seems to suggest that cron is broken because it doesn't DEPEND on 
>  postfix | mail-transport-agent
> 
> > So now newbies have to read the "dependencies" (by which you actually
> > mean "suggestions" and "recommendations") of several hundred
> > packages in order to determine how to finish their installations?
> > And the breakage can change arbitrarily and undocumented on each
> > release?  Unix was easier than this a quarter century ago.
> > 
> > > Postfix remains a 
> > > supported part of the Ubuntu distribution - the only difference between 
> > > the situation in Warty and the situation now is that it isn't installed 
> > > by default.
> > 
> > Which means that important system messages are discarded.  A newbie
> > should not need to know that they need to install and configure
> > an MTA in order to know that something needs attention.
> > 
> > Similarly, a sysadmin switching from any respectable Unix or Linux
> > to Ubuntu would unconciously assume the presence of a working mail
> > system.
> > 
> > Similarly, anyone who installed a bunch of great Hoary systems
> > would be somewhat annoyed when he or she lost data to a problem
> > on a Breezy system because of this dumbdowngrade.
> > 
> > People will lose their creations, their work.  You will lose karma.
> > Just stop breaking things you don't understand.  OK?
> > 
> > Oh, and before I forget, what else did you break in Breezy that
> > we haven't even noticed yet?
> > 
> > > However, it's *on the CD*.
> > 
> > Irrelevant.  The installer does not say "After finishing this
> > install we suggest you add Postfix if you don't want to get
> > fired for incompetence."
> > 
> > > The decision ...
> > 
> > What decision?  Where is it documented?  Who made it?
> > 
> > > ... not to install an internet daemon by default was taken in 
> > > order to provide increased security,
> > 
> > A daemon listening on 127.0.0.1 does not decrease security.  What
> > makes you think it does?
> 
> If ubuntu maintainers/developers are that concerned, they should
> configure postfix to default to a local-only mode.
> > 
> > > and also to allow people who actually /need/ an MTA to configure it appropriately rather than ending 
> > > up with a (mostly useless) default configuration.
> > 
> > Your phrasing again indicates that you don't know what you're
> > writing about.  Postfix offers a choice of several basic
> > configurations during debconf and they are suitable for
> > almost all newbies, almost all desktops, and many servers.
> > 
> > Sure, sysadmins who want to make a secondary MX that's not an
> > open relay know that they've got a bit of work to do.  That's
> > no reason to cause hundreds of man years of effort to be lost
> > when the various default configurations are secure and cover
> > almost all cases.
> > 
> > > If you disagree with 
> > > any of the technical decisions, then please bring it up on ubuntu-devel. 
> > > However, if your only argument is that postfix should be installed by 
> > > default, then I'm afraid that it's not a situation that's likely to 
> > > change. If you feel that it's vital for a distribution to come with an 
> > > MTA as part of the default desktop install, then I'm sorry. Ubuntu isn't 
> > > for you. It never was.
> > 
> > You are again mistaken.  Ubuntu had MTA in default installations
> > until someone broke Breezy.  It is very easy to put Postfix and
> > Mailx back into the seeds for Dapper.  It's on the CD, it won't
> > take any more CD space, and (apart from maybe a little work on
> > the help text) Postfix installs well via debconf and provides
> > the configurations that newbies and most others need.
> > 
> > You have made not a single valid argument for dumbdowngrading
> > Breezy.  I am ashamed to see such white noise from a UCAM address.
> 
> 
> I agree.   
> 
> 
> To recap:
> An MTA (with a default local-only mode) is required by any distribution
> that includes a cron daemon, because cron uses the /usr/bin/sendmail
> program (not /bin/mail and friends) to email any text that it captures
> from stdout/stderr when running a cron job.
> > 
> > --Mike Bird
> > 
> >