Do you really want developers to be on this list was (Re: Very bad status of hardware (especially wifi) support in ubuntu, due to the too many accumulated regressions)

Scott Kitterman ubuntu at
Tue Nov 11 18:48:20 UTC 2008

On Tuesday 11 November 2008 10:47, Luke L wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:03 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo at> wrote:
> >> This list was created to give users a way to discuss Ubuntu development
> >> with developers.  Comments like "I was just joking about you having to
> >> know anything" make the decision to unsubscribe easy.  I'm seriously
> >> considering it myself.
> >
> > It should remain, developers should remain. Developers are never going
> > to get away from users who want to bitch, greater layers between the
> > developers and users just breeds users who resent and don't understand
> > developers and developers who don't understand (none programmer)user
> > needs. Very Bad.
> >
> > So on one side I think that list moderators or peers should be very
> > prompt in telling the wrong sorts of emails where to go, perhaps with a
> > standard template which explains the rules and a little checkbox by the
> > offence.
> >
> > On the other hand, list members should try not to bait the trolls. I've
> > caught myself being suckered in too, so I know it's not easy. But why
> > reward the wrong sort of emails with any response other than a boiler
> > plait 'Your being rude' email?
> On a practical note, it isn't as if this ML is getting flooded with
> hundreds of messages of traffic a day. For those who could benefit
> from the technical discussions and user input, I don't see why someone
> would disconnect themselves from that for the reason of saving
> themselves 15 minutes a day. As long as there are "signals", the
> "noise" should be dealt with and ultimately set aside.
Whether you see the reason for it or not, I guarantee you that fewer and fewer 
developers are subscribed to this list.  The general reason is not 'too many 
messages' it's to much rudeness.  

Users on this list have a choice.  Concerns can be raised in a way that is 
constructive, helpful, and brings us together or they can be raised in a 
divisive way.  

Offlist someone mentioned the example of kdvi brought up on this list a few 
months ago.  Based on that user's request, I looked into the validity of 
their concern and found it had merit.  As a result, I invested probably a 
dozen hours of my free time to repackage kdvi in a way that would work on 

Developers who are here do try to listen.  It's up to you to chose how you 
decided to engage them in discussion.

Scott K

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