[Ubuntu-ch] Language

[Myriam Schweingruber]

Hi all,

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 1:55 PM, DigiSus <info at digisus.info> wrote:
> Hassan El Jacifi wrote:
>> Le samedi 25 octobre 2008 à 20:36 +0200, Dirk Deimeke a écrit :
>>> You are far from being united in any way ...
>>
>> Any way, it's your point of view. And I respect it.
>> But I will not let you destroy this community and our goal.
>
> Not remotely does Dirk try to "destroy" anything. In my opinion, this
> language and insinuation [Unterstellung] is misplaced and not the way
> new members should be treated here. Hassan, with all due respect, I
> would suggest that you take it back.

Folks, please keep it friendly, this has gone too far.

> Dirk, like any other new member joining this ML, has every right to
> question all aspects of the status quo -- stuff that seems to be a
> "given" for the rest of us. In fact, I believe new & engaged people are
> the only way preventing this (or any other) group from getting
> self-complacent [selbstgefällig], stuck, and "members only". Dirk asks
> relevant questions in a very polite and considerate manner.

All information about the SwissTeam and its way of working is to be
found on the wiki and the mailing list archives, so if newbies want to
have information, they can find it
...
> To the language topic:
>
> I have no clear opinion on the language question because all solutions
> have advantages and disadvantages. I agree with Dirk that we exclude
> people by sticking to English -- or any one language. Using English
> "just fine" on the ML for some time does not mean anything except:
> English-speaking lists attract English speaking people. Not surprising,
> is it?

Again, the aim of this list is coordination of the Swiss Team, we
never excluded anybody because of it's language. Only we want it to be
available for all Switzerland, and those who don't know English can
allways refer to another language forum.

> The most inclusive approach would be to allow all relevant languages:
> D/F/I/E. But the linear logic of a mailing list does undermine this, I
> think. Maybe a different technical solution would be more suitable -- a
> web-based forum with 4 language sections? It certainly would be more
> inclusive in the sense that everybody could write in the preferred
> language. Everybody could get information in different languages --
> something not possible via the ML today.

Markus, did you read my post? Obviously not, else you would know that
we HAVE a multilingual forum in Switzerland!

> Of course, ubunteros would pick their preferred language section and
> that could "split" the community. Well, I think this has already
> happened and that is how I understood Dirk's comment about not being
> united. Think about it: Even people understanding -all- national
> languages but no English are structurally excluded by a single-language
>  ML in English. We, the current people -on- the English list, do not
> hear such complaints from the people left out -- for obvious reasons.
> But that does not mean "this language problem has ended " (Hassan). It
> only means we do not hear about it...

Again, if you read the posts of Hassan, Stephane and mine, you would
know that we NEVER excluded anybody because of the language. The
decision to keep this particular mailing list English has been a
consensus and, again, this is NOT a mailing list aimed for
multilingual support. For your information, with more than 70% of the
people in Switzerland speaking more or less German, if we don't stop
the German treads immediately, it will end up in German only (happened
before, in other groups) and exclude for example Hassan and Stephane,
both long term, valuable and precious contributors and btw. founders
of the SwissTeam from contributiong, that's the facts!

> ... except the rare cases when (new) people from "outside" like Dirk
> bring it up. IMHO, feedback should be treated as a gift and encouraged
> and not be considered as danger and avoided.

If it is constructive feedback, we really appreciate it, but it has
been not constructive at all. Of course I might have misread some
posts, but so far it was only a claim to make this mailing list
"multilingual" (which inevitably ends up to be German exclusive, trust
me, seen this so many times to happen), ad complaining that there is
no other way to contribute.

Excuse me, but I'm very much tempted to say RTFM, as all the
multilingual possibilities are available and always have been
available.
You want to collaborate in the Swiss Team? Make your mind up and ask
politely, but don't expect us to make it your way only because you
asked for. Come up with constructive feedback, and ask for help, you
will be given. To be able to work in a team we need people to report
what they are doing, and that is the biggest problem of all, as only
about 10% of those who claim to be in the SwissTeam ever even showed
up either on the ML or the IRC channel, or even presented themselves
on this list and asked where they could help. Usually we learn about
things happening after and only because we stumble upon, again,
collaborate and contribute and tell us what you are doing, going to
do, have done, etc. See my other mail about the reports page.

I consider this discussion closed and negative feedback without
constructive contribution will be ignored by me and most likely also
others. If you want this Team to be sucsessfull, be positive, but we
are NOT changing the language of this list. If you write in another
language, state it in the Subject and include an English summary. If
you don't speak English, ask somebody else to help.

And yes, I will prepare a multilingual thread and will need help for
translation in Italian, so please speak up!

Greets

Myriam

Pissed about people pretending to contribute but not communicate,
whatever language they use. Do they only know what teamwork means?
Switzerland is MORE than just Zürich!

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