[ubuntu-art] ubuntu-art Digest, Vol 57, Issue 8
Tim Weaver
timweaver17 at gmail.com
Sat Mar 6 02:44:19 GMT 2010
>> Not only are the buttons on the left, but they're not even correct for
>> "buttons on the left"!
>>
>> What OS X has: close, minimize, maximize : menu
>> What we have: maximize, minimize, close : menu
>> What Windows has: menu : minimize, maximize, close
>>
>> As it is right now, the theme will break muscle memory for everyone
>> coming from Windows, OS X, and even all other Linux distros (including
>> previous versions of Ubuntu)!
>>
>>
> Is breaking muscle memory that important? You've just illustrated that
> Windows and OSX are different from one another anyway. Mac OS doesn't even
> have a separate menu on each window and yet people still seem perfectly
> able
> to switch from Windows to OSX. Perhaps we should concentrate on making the
> design attractive, unique AND useful without worrying so much about
> providing maximum correlation with what has been done before.
>
> While it's important to look at other systems for context, we should not
> be
> a slave to what the others are doing. Doing that I think we will always be
> a
> step or two behind.
>
> Of course all of this design stuff depends on who Ubuntu is being aimed
> at.
> Is that documented somewhere?
When using OS X, as I have briefly, it is rare that those buttons, close,
minimize and maximize are ever used. Closing on OS X keeps the program
running so most either do command Q or go to "quit"... muscle memory isn't a
big issue. i like things on the upper right.
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 8:36 PM, <ubuntu-art-request at lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Metacity Button Order Changed (Merk)
> 2. Re: Ubuntu Jersey's (Trey Ethridge)
> 3. Re: Metacity Button Order Changed (SorinN)
> 4. Re: Metacity Button Order Changed (Nate Wiebe)
> 5. Re: Metacity Button Order Changed (Dylan McCall)
> 6. Re: Metacity Button Order Changed (Chris Tooley)
> 7. Re: Metacity Button Order Changed (David Zondlo)
> 8. MeMenu icon, why not Humanity style? (Hajo E.)
> 9. Thanks (John Baer)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:49:58 -0800 (PST)
> From: Merk <merkinman at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Metacity Button Order Changed
> To: ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com
> Message-ID: <27798420.post at talk.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> Fine we shouldn't do something just because OS X or Windows does it.
>
> But what was the research done to show that left aligned, maximize,
> minimize, close was the best option?
>
> Without explanation, it just feels arbitrary and change for the sake of
> change.
>
>
> Richard Querin wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Dana Goyette <dgoyette at calpoly.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Not only are the buttons on the left, but they're not even correct for
> >> "buttons on the left"!
> >>
> >> What OS X has: close, minimize, maximize : menu
> >> What we have: maximize, minimize, close : menu
> >> What Windows has: menu : minimize, maximize, close
> >>
> >> As it is right now, the theme will break muscle memory for everyone
> >> coming from Windows, OS X, and even all other Linux distros (including
> >> previous versions of Ubuntu)!
> >>
> >>
> > Is breaking muscle memory that important? You've just illustrated that
> > Windows and OSX are different from one another anyway. Mac OS doesn't
> even
> > have a separate menu on each window and yet people still seem perfectly
> > able
> > to switch from Windows to OSX. Perhaps we should concentrate on making
> the
> > design attractive, unique AND useful without worrying so much about
> > providing maximum correlation with what has been done before.
> >
> > While it's important to look at other systems for context, we should not
> > be
> > a slave to what the others are doing. Doing that I think we will always
> be
> > a
> > step or two behind.
> >
> > Of course all of this design stuff depends on who Ubuntu is being aimed
> > at.
> > Is that documented somewhere?
> >
> > --
> > ubuntu-art mailing list
> > ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://old.nabble.com/Metacity-Button-Order-Changed-tp27789013p27798420.html
> Sent from the ubuntu-art mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:24:08 -0500
> From: Trey Ethridge <tethridge at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Ubuntu Jersey's
> To: Discussion on Ubuntu artwork <ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID:
> <51c387971003051224n70db8b75t2122be8f4ed496aa at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I can follow up with them to see if they will accept standard SVG files.
> The first ride is June 5th. They require 6 to 8 weeks to deliver. Eight
> weeks from June 5th is around the 11th of April.
>
> I would like to have the design done by the beginning of April if I had to
> set a reasonably comfortable deadline. The more time we have the better.
> I'll still need to sell enough of the jersey's to do the minimum order.
> I'm sure a lot of people would want to see the jersey before they agree to
> buy one.
>
> Trey
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Thorsten Wilms <t_w_ at freenet.de> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 13:53 -0500, Trey Ethridge wrote:
> >
> > > I may be wrong about SVG, but that is basically what Illustrator
> > > produces.
> >
> > Illustrator has its own .ai format. Inkscape should be able to save
> > to .ai, but my build of it refuses to do so, currently. Need to solve
> > that.
> >
> >
> > > Thanks for the feed back. Are you interested?
> >
> > Interested yes, but not entirely sure, yet. This will have to wait until
> > the new colors are pinned down and a vector file of the new logo is
> > available, anyway.
> >
> > Guess I will have to do it because not helping you in this cause would
> > be sad and there is nobody else on this list capable of getting it
> > right ;p (would love to be proven wrong).
> >
> > Can you set a deadline, going from the first race backwards, getting
> > jerseys delivered/sold, 6 weeks production (or what it was) plus a
> > buffer for whatever might go wrong?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thorsten Wilms
> >
> > thorwil's design for free software:
> > http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
> >
> >
> > --
> > ubuntu-art mailing list
> > ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 22:48:28 +0200
> From: SorinN <nemes.sorin at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Metacity Button Order Changed
> To: Discussion on Ubuntu artwork <ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Cc: John Baer <baerjj at gmail.com>
> Message-ID:
> <e9ddc421003051248q1e9cc22bu3dad5fc9f3f6168 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Yes. What was to happen was happened :(
>
> Very much amateurism on this change (right corner to left corner for
> close / minimize / maximize buttons). Yes amateurism - you hear well
> my friends. A good Human Machine Interaction engineer will not do such
> a move. There are laws and principles. Some Unix friends told me that
> they have a word "do not destroy well established things". I bet they
> know what they say they are Oracle engineers with almost 30 years of
> Unix / Linux behind.
>
> 2 main reasons which prove the amateurism :
>
> - this move will broke what was good and acknowledged by 90 % or more PC
> users
> as `de facto ` (and I don't hear complains about that).
>
> - the left side position of those buttons will agglomerate
> (unnecessary) the space where a normal user search for menu bar and
> for 1'st level functions.
> Those buttons has a secondary scope and are rarely used, the right
> corner was a good place for this group according usability standards
> (the fact that MAC use those buttons on the left means nothing they
> are maybe 5%, rest of the world just close their windows from the
> right corner).
>
> Indeed, everyone know that Gnome need some facial changes but hey -
> why they start to kill the piano ? ..just because ?
>
> Well it's clear that the team behind that move does not contain
> professionals. If this was just a proposal - there's no excuse for
> that. A single word >> amateurism.
>
> Shuttleworth deserver better peoples because his movement is a crucial
> movement of the modern history. I think he believe in peoples too much
> and that's that's the point where some peoples can see a profit. Too
> bad.
>
> 2010/3/5 Kenneth Wimer <kwwii at ubuntu.com>:
> > On Friday 05 March 2010 01:43:43 am John Baer wrote:
> >> I noticed in today's upgrade (03/04) the order of the metacity's
> >> "minimize" and "maximized" buttons changed.
> >>
> >> In the old metacity the order was; minimize, maximize, close
> >>
> >> In the new metacity the order is: maximize, minimize, close
> >>
> >> Is this the desired effect or is this a bug?
> >
> > This is the desired effect.
> >
> > --
> > Ken
> >
> > --
> > ubuntu-art mailing list
> > ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Nemes Ioan Sorin
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 17:21:42 -0400
> From: Nate Wiebe <nate___wiebe at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Metacity Button Order Changed
> To: <ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID: <COL104-W75F673BC2DEA9E6C5C617F2380 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> At first I was very sceptical about having them on the right but I decided
> to give it a shot. After using the buttons on the left for a few hours, it
> feels very natural since I am usually focused on the left hand side of the
> screen to begin with, so it makes sense why the side was changed.
>
> I am currently using "maximize,minimize,close:menu" and I have to say that
> I really appreciate this change.
>
> As for other themes, I think it all depends on what the overall feel is to
> determine which side they should be located on, but I think they should all
> be able to adapt.
>
> --Nate Wiebe
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> IM on the go with Messenger on your phone
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712960
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 13:28:32 -0800
> From: Dylan McCall <dylanmccall at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Metacity Button Order Changed
> To: Discussion on Ubuntu artwork <ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID:
> <9b6762c91003051328y4bf826daqad2e6538246d9da2 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 3/5/10, Nate Wiebe <nate___wiebe at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > At first I was very sceptical about having them on the right but I
> decided
> > to give it a shot. After using the buttons on the left for a few hours,
> it
> > feels very natural since I am usually focused on the left hand side of
> the
> > screen to begin with, so it makes sense why the side was changed.
> >
> > I am currently using "maximize,minimize,close:menu" and I have to say
> that I
> > really appreciate this change.
> >
> > As for other themes, I think it all depends on what the overall feel is
> to
> > determine which side they should be located on, but I think they should
> all
> > be able to adapt.
> >
> > --Nate Wiebe
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > IM on the go with Messenger on your phone
> > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9712960
>
> Is there a firm rationale behind the trough in Radiance and Ambiance's
> Metacity theme? For me, it adds a lot of visual noise and makes it
> impossible to change the order of the buttons. (People firmly set in
> their ways won't be pleased). Removing the trough would solve that, so
> the new default would be slightly less of a problem since it could at
> least be changed as end users wish.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 13:29:28 -0800
> From: Chris Tooley <euxneks at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Metacity Button Order Changed
> To: Discussion on Ubuntu artwork <ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID:
> <3ba18581003051329l11ec0a0eo3fa33cb6eef06103 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:48 PM, SorinN <nemes.sorin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes. What was to happen was happened :(
> >
> > Very much amateurism on this change (right corner to left corner for
> > close / minimize / maximize buttons). Yes amateurism - you hear well
> > my friends. A good Human Machine Interaction engineer will not do such
> > a move. There are laws and principles. Some Unix friends told me that
> > they have a word ?"do not destroy well established things". I bet they
> > know what they say they are Oracle engineers with almost 30 years of
> > Unix / Linux behind.
> >
> > 2 main reasons which prove the amateurism :
> >
> > - this move will broke what was good and acknowledged by 90 % ?or more PC
> users
> > as ?`de facto ` (and I don't hear complains about that).
> >
> > - the left side position of those buttons will agglomerate
> > (unnecessary) the space where a normal user search for menu bar and
> > for 1'st level functions.
> > Those buttons has a secondary scope and are rarely used, the right
> > corner was a good place for this group according usability standards
> > (the fact that MAC use those buttons on the left means nothing they
> > are maybe 5%, rest of the world just close their windows from the
> > right corner).
> >
> > Indeed, everyone know that Gnome need some facial changes but hey -
> > why they start to kill the piano ? ..just because ?
> >
> > Well it's clear that the team behind that move does not contain
> > professionals. If this was just a proposal - there's no excuse for
> > that. A single word >> amateurism.
> >
> > Shuttleworth deserver better peoples because his movement is a crucial
> > movement of the modern history. I think he believe in peoples too much
> > and that's that's the point where some peoples can see a profit. Too
> > bad.
>
> I think we need to keep in mind that they have just released a small
> amount of information about the new shift in look, and I would liken
> this to a beta release. I think what they're doing is testing the
> waters for certain ideas to see what the reaction of the users will
> be.
>
> Personally, it doesn't matter to me which side the controls are on,
> but just due to the outcry of detractors I agree that it would be
> harmful if they didn't change it back to the right hand side of the
> window.
>
> Interestingly related:
> http://blog.daviey.com/blogroll/anything-but-the-buttons.html
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:59:40 -0600
> From: David Zondlo <dzondlo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-art] Metacity Button Order Changed
> To: Discussion on Ubuntu artwork <ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID:
> <b7cea7431003051659j3c0f3ad0x53a7ccfa56fb694c at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> While I am super used to buttons-on-right I think I'm the only one who is
> digging the change to the left. Google chrome is still messing with me
> since
> its not decorated by metacity. Might have to go back to FF :P
>
> ~Dave
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 02:38:33 +0100
> From: "Hajo E." <regardful at googlemail.com>
> Subject: [ubuntu-art] MeMenu icon, why not Humanity style?
> To: Discussion on Ubuntu artwork <ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID:
> <c73062a51003051738h1c7142b5q33744a5b6afb9d73 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi,
>
> Having a look at the default look of lucid, you can see all icons in
> upper gnome-panel to be flat, monochromatic, mac-like and simple
> *except* the MeMenu "bubble". Is this a conscious decision or will it
> be changed to have a consistent set of symbols up there?
>
> Best regards,
> Hajo
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 21:36:29 -0500
> From: John Baer <baerjj at gmail.com>
> Subject: [ubuntu-art] Thanks
> To: ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com
> Message-ID:
> <484ace5d1003051836n50ef4a0frb43ed0b5b1886631 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I just updated my Lucid desktop and a new community-themes package.
>
> I see the Impression buttons are now on the left. I was thinking of doing
> the same thing.
>
> Thanks for the help!
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> ------------------------------
>
> --
> ubuntu-art mailing list
> ubuntu-art at lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
>
>
> End of ubuntu-art Digest, Vol 57, Issue 8
> *****************************************
>
--
Tim Weaver
2010
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