Ubuntu 11.10 makes Unity compulsory

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2011 17:46:35 +0100
Avi <lists at avi.co> wrote:

> On 04/04/11 17:21, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> >> Equally, the Union Flag is composed of three crosses, but I don't
> >> think the UK and Christianity are at all the same thing. Even if
> >> England has its own church.
> >
> > Really?  I see one, two if the background for the red cross is
> > considered to be such on its own.  OTOH, the cross(es) aren't the
> > proportions seen in the Christian cross.  Will any cross do?  How
> > about an, "X"?
> > OTOH, the Israeli flag /is/ the Star of David and its emblem /is/
> > the Menorah.  ...both described as being so.
> 
> Well, there's the Cross of St George (the vertical/horizontal red on 
> white), the Cross of St Andrew (white on blue) and the Cross of St 
> Patrick (diagonal red on white), and each, on their own, are referred
> to by those names.
> 
> >>
> >>> "The name Israel has historically been used, in common and
> >>> religious usage, to refer to the Land of Israel, the biblical
> >>> Kingdom of Israel and the entire Jewish nation. According to the
> >>> Bible, the name "Israel" was given to the patriarch Jacob
> >>> (Standard Yisraʾel, Isrāʾīl; Septuagint Greek: Ἰσραήλ; "persevere
> >>> with God") after he successfully wrestled with an angel of God."
> >> This isn't specific to Judaism at all -
> >
> > "The name Israel has historically been used...to refer to...the
> > entire Jewish nation."
> > That is, the name refers to the 'entire nation of Jews': Judaism.
> >
> > That (Judaism) is not specific to Judaism?  I fail to see your
> > reasoning.
> 
> No. Israel as a name for the country isn't specific to Judaism,

There are other, non-Jewish Israels?  Whoda thunk it?   ;-]

> that's what it was called by everyone. Israel as a name for the
> people predates that of the country, when the people of Israel found
> themselves in control of a country, they named it after its
> inhabitants - Israel (occasionally).

Once again, "the land,...the Biblical kingdom..., and the entire Jewish
nation."
> 
> The people and the country share a name, but that doesn't mean
> they're equivalent - the land of Israel is that which is inhabited by
> the [people|children] of Israel. It's now also the name of the state
> that exists on that land.
> 
> >> How is this Israel 'being' Judaism any more than it is Israel
> >> bending to the will of a religions group?
> >
> > Bending to the will of a religious group usually doesn't include
> > defying /your own stated mandate/ to create a constitution.  That
> > would seem, at least to me, to be completely surrendering to the
> > will of the whole religion.
> 
> No, completely surrendering to the will of the religion would be 
> disposing of that entire mandate for them. This is *partially* 
> surrendering to their will, otherwise known as compromising.

"The State of Israel was supposed to adopt a formal written
constitution a few months after its declaration of independence on 14
May 1948."
That's 63 years ago; the mandate /has/ been effectively disposed of.
> 
> > Whatever the reason or reasoning, it is still a Jewish homeland for
> > Jewish people primarily and the government is a Jewish government.
> > It is funny how one doesn't get this same denial from Israelis,
> > themselves.  They /know/ that Israel is a Jewish state for Jews.
> 
> You do get precisely that argument amongst Israelis. Even so, being a 
> Jewish homeland for Jewish people with a Jewish government would not 
> make it equivalent to Judasim. It would make it Jewish.

Right; just as a Christian homeland for Christian people based on
Christian beliefs/laws isn't equivalent to Christianity, it is,
um, uh, er... Christian.

So right.  How could I have missed that telling difference?
I think I see what you are meaning; Israel, the state, isn't exactly
equivalent to Israel, the traditional People, the Sons of David.  True,
the state, Israel has been embraced and extended by the people, Israel. 
To continue the analogy, they should now extinguish it.  ;-}
> 
> You seem to have left your earlier point: I'm not trying to argue
> that Israel isn't Jewish to whatever degree - I don't think that
> being a Jewish state makes it equivalent to Judaism and earlier you
> were saying that it did.
> 
Being a Jewish state for (mainly) Jewish people and defining Jewish as
a religious people, how may one differentiate between the two?  If I
have a Boy Scout troop made for and by and of Boy Scouts, isn't it,
therefore, a Boy Scout organization?  ...even if all we do is watch pr0n
movies?
> [...]
> 
> > They don't have equivalence because the Muslim countries are many.
> 
> So were another Jewish country to be founded, Israel and Judaism
> would lose their equivalence, without either having to change?
> 
Exactly so, unless they self-profess to being equivalent.  One may not
serve two masters.

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
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