Transparency, Community? (was Re: List-Id Changed why? )

[Derek Broughton]

Matthew East wrote:

> * Peter Garrett:
>> What I find *much* more interesting (and disturbing) than technical
>> filtering details is this:
>> 
>> Who made this change, why was it made, and where is the discussion of the
>> implications?
>> 
>> Considering some of the discussions of the past few weeks, this looks
>> suspiciously like an imposed direction by someone, or some people, who
>> happen to have an opinion about the function of the list - and who
>> apparently don't care if anyone has a different opinion.
>> 
>> I ask: What are the implications of changing the list ID in this manner ?
>> Why was this not done in consultation with the list subscribers ?
> 
> Some background. I emailed the list administrators, asking to change the
> topic to make it clear that this is a technical support list (as
> distinct from sounder, which is the discussion list). The administrators
> then implemented the wording.
...
> Please don't react so strongly to this - there are more important things
> to focus on in the Ubuntu community. There is no stifling of discussion,
> it is simply made clear that there are two lists for two purposes -

No, it is NOT "simply made clear", and I'm as annoyed as Peter.  Nobody
consulted US, the users of this list.  Instead, you unilaterally decided to
change it.  What the Ubuntu Community Council has to say about the lists is
not relevant - they are an advisory body, and not the list community.

> discussion of Ubuntu related topics should take place on the sounder
> list, while technical support should take place on this list.

That's what _you_ think.  It's not what most of the users of this list have
expected for the years I've been here.

> You've 
> suggested the list subscribers should be consulted, but that's frankly
> not very realistic in circumstances where there are thousands of
> subscribers, and people will simply not agree. 

Of course it's realistic.  You don't need agreement - you need a reasonable
consensus and a warning that the change is coming.

> The delineation as 
> described in the etiquette page, as approved by the Community Council,
> seems to me to be the

I'm getting really damned annoyed about the jackboots in the Ubuntu
Community.  First, it's yell "Code of Conduct" at anybody who gets a little
hot; then it's change the list description when people point at it as
validation of their post's content.

> 
> If you've got any more concerns about this subject, I think the best
> place to discuss it would be at a Community Council meeting, or on the
> sounder list (included in this mail). Please continue the discussion
> there.

yeah.  Typical customer service response: "It's not my fault, it's policy. 
No, sorry, you can't talk to my supervisor".

And no, I will NOT continue the discussion there.  This change of policy is
relevant HERE, not the community council and not sounder.
-- 
derek