internet connection on Kubuntu Hardy

[Emanoil Kotsev]

Thorny wrote:

> [edit]
> [thorny}>> Well Emanoil, you just recently mentioned in another thread
> that you
>>> didn't want to discuss that issue any further. It's not going to make
>>> you any friends in this community if you lurk waiting for some
>>> opportunity to interject the same stuff every chance you get. I imagine
>>> there are some who have already plonked you and thus don't see your
>>> posts, and though I haven't done that I really don't want to see the
>>> same "policy" argument brought up too many more times when it has all
>>> been said.
>> 
> [Emanoil]> Yes you right. It's much much better than debian sid. But the
> apps are
>> not stable  enough. I still don't know for sure if  I'm satisfied. For
>> me something is working when it's working 95-98% of the time and for few
>> things it should be 101% (like kernel and disk stuff)
>> 
>> May be I want to discuss even if people "plonk" me - I'm still not
>> 100%sure - am I kubuntu software :-). There will be someone who reads
>> the stuff and even if not, I still like to write it down.
>> 
>> 
> Sure, but my point was that that discussion has already been done and
> people expressed their differing opinions and do not agree. You said you
> didn't want to discuss it further, yet you continue to bring it up in
> threads that are not about it and it is just your same opinion, that seems
> like you are trying to be difficult rather than respectful of others
> opinions. I think we all agree that we'd like to see Kubuntu better, not
> everyone agrees on the definition of better or how to achieve that. I also
> know that the point was made to you that this is a users list, a
> developers list would probably be a better place for you to try and
> influence decision making in the way you want.
> 
> 
> [thorny]>> Sure, Kubuntu is *based* on Debian Sid (unstable) but Kubuntu
> is not
>>> Debian unstable, developers have worked to make it much easier to use
>>> than Sid and I think they are very successful. Do you think that "pure"
>>> user you mention would have a good user experience if they tried to
>>> install and run Sid? Does everything about Kubuntu work flawlessly for
>>> people who don't know what they are doing, no, not *everything*. Would
>>> Debian have
>> 
> [Emanoil]> That's what I'm saying. kubuntu targets people with less
> experience.
>> Instead of fixing kde 4.X bugs it might be better to give the users a
>> more stable kubuntu and working system. Debian is not targeting those
>> people, so when you go to debian you know what to expect from them. When
>> you go to kubuntu you are told a great linux distro, also for people
>> without linux knowledge - and those people fell on their nose.
>> 
>> 
> No Emanoil, only *some* people fell on their nose. There are lots and lots
> of people for whom Kubuntu has, and is, working very well, right out of
> the box, exactly the target audience. Here in user groups we mostly
> see the people with problems, that's why many come here. We don't see or
> hear the people for whom the system works correctly and they can easily
> figure things out, they don't need us. You must realise I know Debian,
> Emanoil, surely you can see from my header that I've sent this from a
> Debian box. One of the whines over in Debian forums is that with stable
> all the software is too old, lots of people complain about why doesn't
> Debian have newer features. So, you see, the argument is just the
> opposite. You personally don't want the newest cutting edge features and
> yet there is a user base that is constantly asking for the newest feature,
> right now. There is no way to make everyone happy. Just for the record, my
> opinion is very close to yours in this matter, but I know the other
> opinion is out there and I understand.
> 
> 
> [thorny]>> worked with the specific wlan card that Lisi has, not
> necessarily. What
>>> if it is a broadcom chip, would it have worked on Debian stable
>>> (currently Etch) out-of-the-box, no because of the non-free drivers and
>>> I haven't even mentioned old version vs. new version. And, just because
>>> your wlan card worked, one can't assume all would or even *should* work
>>> without user intervention.
>> 
> [Emanoil]> Of course not, but as you see an average kubuntu user can not
> manage it
>> and even I had troubles with the networking stuff, but fixed it quickly.
>> 
>> 
> As above, I don't think we see the "average" user here. As a matter of
> fact, in my opinion, the Kubuntu Forums is populated with people who might
> be described by your "average user"(what you previously called "pure").
> *This list*, also in my opinion, is populated by above average users, lots
> of the people here have some experience and almost all have a desire and
> willingness to learn. But, of course, not all.
> 
> But network cards cause some problems for some users in any distro, yet
> many average users boot up and surf the Net with no trouble.
> 
> 
> [thorny]>> BTW, when you "fixed" the K/ubuntu installs by removing sudo,
> many
>>> people would characterise that as *breaking* the system. Not everyone
>>> shares the same opinions and GNU/Linux gives us a lot of opportunity to
>>> choose and the freedom to do so. You don't need to tell us you know
>>> what you are saying, we realise that is your opinion.
>> 
> [Emanoil]> I removed them as users from the sudoers file and did not
> remove sudo as
>> a hole. I put myself there, so the next time they have troubles and
>> forget their root password I'm able to help them. At the other hand
>> without sudo they can not break anything and it's proven to work. If I
>> have to visit one of them every day, I wouldn't have time to spent an
>> evening at home. So they write down when what has happened and
>> occasionally I fix the most of it at once - once or twice a year.
>> 
>> 
> Yes, I do not require a tutorial on sudo, I understand the implications.
> This is another one of those "discussions" that has been going on since
> Ubuntu first released. And it is another discussion, that has strong
> feelings at both ends of the spectrum which doesn't need to be discussed
> again here. My personal choice, on a Debian Box I would never give a user
> ALL ALL, but I can happily use sudo on my Kubuntu workstation. I
> understand what you have done, and the reason for it, but it does take
> freedom away from those users of yours. Not everyone has the luxury of a
> technician to come by their house and fix things for them, Kubuntu has
> found a way to make it possible for people switching from Windows to have
> a similar enough experience that they can get things done even before they
> learn all the differences in a GNU/Linux system.
> 
> [Emanoil]> Still my wish is to have a stable k/ubuntu system working for
> pure users
>> and the discussins proves that many do think so. I don't care if it's
>> based on unstable or experimental, but if kubuntu aims to target pure
>> users more has to be done
> 
> I think almost all of us want that and I also know, from following that
> discussion, that almost everyone agrees more has to be done. What purpose
> will be served by continuing to say it here, why not take it to someone
> who has the power to make changes?
> 
> 

I have to agree with all you say. Just to mention some of them got sudo to
some services. But in general I can not argue with you, because your
argumentation is correct.

regards