internet connection on Kubuntu Hardy

Thorny thorntreehome at gmail.com
Fri Oct 17 07:10:30 UTC 2008


[edit]
[thorny}>> Well Emanoil, you just recently mentioned in another thread
that you
>> didn't want to discuss that issue any further. It's not going to make
>> you any friends in this community if you lurk waiting for some
>> opportunity to interject the same stuff every chance you get. I imagine
>> there are some who have already plonked you and thus don't see your
>> posts, and though I haven't done that I really don't want to see the
>> same "policy" argument brought up too many more times when it has all
>> been said.
> 
[Emanoil]> Yes you right. It's much much better than debian sid. But the
apps are
> not stable  enough. I still don't know for sure if  I'm satisfied. For
> me something is working when it's working 95-98% of the time and for few
> things it should be 101% (like kernel and disk stuff)
> 
> May be I want to discuss even if people "plonk" me - I'm still not
> 100%sure - am I kubuntu software :-). There will be someone who reads
> the stuff and even if not, I still like to write it down.
> 
> 
Sure, but my point was that that discussion has already been done and
people expressed their differing opinions and do not agree. You said you
didn't want to discuss it further, yet you continue to bring it up in
threads that are not about it and it is just your same opinion, that seems
like you are trying to be difficult rather than respectful of others
opinions. I think we all agree that we'd like to see Kubuntu better, not
everyone agrees on the definition of better or how to achieve that. I also
know that the point was made to you that this is a users list, a
developers list would probably be a better place for you to try and
influence decision making in the way you want.


[thorny]>> Sure, Kubuntu is *based* on Debian Sid (unstable) but Kubuntu
is not
>> Debian unstable, developers have worked to make it much easier to use
>> than Sid and I think they are very successful. Do you think that "pure"
>> user you mention would have a good user experience if they tried to
>> install and run Sid? Does everything about Kubuntu work flawlessly for
>> people who don't know what they are doing, no, not *everything*. Would
>> Debian have
> 
[Emanoil]> That's what I'm saying. kubuntu targets people with less
experience.
> Instead of fixing kde 4.X bugs it might be better to give the users a
> more stable kubuntu and working system. Debian is not targeting those
> people, so when you go to debian you know what to expect from them. When
> you go to kubuntu you are told a great linux distro, also for people
> without linux knowledge - and those people fell on their nose.
> 
> 
No Emanoil, only *some* people fell on their nose. There are lots and lots
of people for whom Kubuntu has, and is, working very well, right out of
the box, exactly the target audience. Here in user groups we mostly
see the people with problems, that's why many come here. We don't see or
hear the people for whom the system works correctly and they can easily
figure things out, they don't need us. You must realise I know Debian,
Emanoil, surely you can see from my header that I've sent this from a
Debian box. One of the whines over in Debian forums is that with stable
all the software is too old, lots of people complain about why doesn't
Debian have newer features. So, you see, the argument is just the
opposite. You personally don't want the newest cutting edge features and
yet there is a user base that is constantly asking for the newest feature,
right now. There is no way to make everyone happy. Just for the record, my
opinion is very close to yours in this matter, but I know the other
opinion is out there and I understand.


[thorny]>> worked with the specific wlan card that Lisi has, not
necessarily. What
>> if it is a broadcom chip, would it have worked on Debian stable
>> (currently Etch) out-of-the-box, no because of the non-free drivers and
>> I haven't even mentioned old version vs. new version. And, just because
>> your wlan card worked, one can't assume all would or even *should* work
>> without user intervention.
> 
[Emanoil]> Of course not, but as you see an average kubuntu user can not
manage it
> and even I had troubles with the networking stuff, but fixed it quickly.
> 
> 
As above, I don't think we see the "average" user here. As a matter of
fact, in my opinion, the Kubuntu Forums is populated with people who might
be described by your "average user"(what you previously called "pure").
*This list*, also in my opinion, is populated by above average users, lots
of the people here have some experience and almost all have a desire and
willingness to learn. But, of course, not all.

But network cards cause some problems for some users in any distro, yet
many average users boot up and surf the Net with no trouble.


[thorny]>> BTW, when you "fixed" the K/ubuntu installs by removing sudo,
many
>> people would characterise that as *breaking* the system. Not everyone
>> shares the same opinions and GNU/Linux gives us a lot of opportunity to
>> choose and the freedom to do so. You don't need to tell us you know
>> what you are saying, we realise that is your opinion.
> 
[Emanoil]> I removed them as users from the sudoers file and did not
remove sudo as
> a hole. I put myself there, so the next time they have troubles and
> forget their root password I'm able to help them. At the other hand
> without sudo they can not break anything and it's proven to work. If I
> have to visit one of them every day, I wouldn't have time to spent an
> evening at home. So they write down when what has happened and
> occasionally I fix the most of it at once - once or twice a year.
> 
> 
Yes, I do not require a tutorial on sudo, I understand the implications.
This is another one of those "discussions" that has been going on since
Ubuntu first released. And it is another discussion, that has strong
feelings at both ends of the spectrum which doesn't need to be discussed
again here. My personal choice, on a Debian Box I would never give a user
ALL ALL, but I can happily use sudo on my Kubuntu workstation. I
understand what you have done, and the reason for it, but it does take
freedom away from those users of yours. Not everyone has the luxury of a
technician to come by their house and fix things for them, Kubuntu has
found a way to make it possible for people switching from Windows to have
a similar enough experience that they can get things done even before they
learn all the differences in a GNU/Linux system.

[Emanoil]> Still my wish is to have a stable k/ubuntu system working for
pure users
> and the discussins proves that many do think so. I don't care if it's
> based on unstable or experimental, but if kubuntu aims to target pure
> users more has to be done

I think almost all of us want that and I also know, from following that
discussion, that almost everyone agrees more has to be done. What purpose
will be served by continuing to say it here, why not take it to someone
who has the power to make changes?





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