[OT rude or not, a different opinion] -Re: Beta 8.10 released

[Emanoil Kotsev]

--- On Sat, 10/11/08, Ignazio Palmisano <ignazio_io at yahoo.it> wrote:

> From: Ignazio Palmisano <ignazio_io at yahoo.it>
> Subject: Re: [OT rude or not, a different opinion] -Re: Beta 8.10 released
> To: "Kubuntu Help and User Discussions" <kubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 6:42 PM
> Thorny wrote:
> > On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:23:57 +0100, Ignazio Palmisano
> wrote:
> > 
> >> I have to disagree with this argument: no one
> knows in detail what's in
> >> somebody's else head, and it's not up to
> the listener to ask for
> >> clarifications for every communication, it's
> up to the speaker to try to
> >> convey as much information as possible, so that
> the meaning of what's
> >> said is as unambiguous as possible. Wherever there
> is a hole in the
> >> communication, there is the possibility of
> misunderstanding, and what
> >> people do is fill up the holes with what *seems*
> most appropriate. As
> >> many have already said, email is a poor way to
> express feelings
> >> accompanying words, unless one tries really hard,
> which usually means
> >> very long emails.
> >>
> >>
> > I generally agree with what you said for normal
> communication. However, in
> > a place where people come to help and be helped, I
> think it is incumbent
> > on the helper (who has chosen that role, no one is
> forced to respond) to
> > make a considerable effort to understand and support a
> poster who might
> > have trouble expressing any part of the communication.
> In theory, those
> > with the best command of the language could be in a
> position to better
> > comprehend the nuances of that language and be aware
> of what might be
> > attributable to their own emotions . Specifically,
> this list is about an
> > operating system that is part of a group that desires
> to be welcoming and
> > supportive. I think I even read that somewhere in a
> mission statement
> > about Ubuntu but I don't have any link to cite. I
> interpret that as 'bend
> > over backward'(make the effort) to try and help,
> spend the time writing
> > those long emails and endeavor to make people feel
> welcome. YMMV. I can
> > do it for a while, but I too will quit replying to
> someone who, over time,
> > continues to be rude or trolls. 
> > 
> > I know your email wasn't threaded to my reply but
> you and I probably
> > approach things differently, even in person
> (meatspace) I would tend to
> > ask if someone is meaning to be rude or if I
> misunderstood what they said.
> > Of course, in meatspace, things do tend to play out a
> bit differently than
> > cyberspace. Posters who think they haven't been
> treated fairly tend to
> > just disappear and we may not get another chance to
> help them with Kubuntu.
> > 
> 
> I agree with you, it might not show in my recent emails but
> that's what 
> I usually do (on other mailing lists, I'm nowhere
> knowledgeable enough 
> to help much on this list). What ticked me off was the
> *perception* that 
> the discussion was going from technical and/or a matter of
> taste to more 
>   personal statements (not directed at me, but then, what
> can I say... 
> sorry for the noise :)).
> I.
> 

I want to put  a point to this discussion from my side. I am pretty self confident person and I know that I'm not rude, may be too direct or abit too rough. Anyway I think it was/is a good discussion.
If you still don't get the point :-) it's your problem. If you are affected by the question it's your problem. If you think I'm attacking you personally, it's your problem. In fact it's always the choice or the abillity of the hearer to interpret and understand some statement and the speaker can not imagin how a hearer would interpret something.

By the way what you mean is "argumentum ad hominem" but I _did_not_ use it in this sense. I also never wanted to say someone is dumb, just read what I said about kde3 and ask me if you still do not understand (which is equell to me to "to get the point").
I don't think it makes sense to discuss it further why I said it. In fact I was really affected but in no means wanted to affect you or someone else.

In fact I tried kubuntu may be 4 years ago and did not agree that it's deriving from debian unstable. I still do not agree with it and that you want to push the kde4 to the users and I will not move to it untill I'm 101% sure it works.

I would in fact expect more respect to the users point of view, but this is the choice of developers as we stated before. In fact I've being involved into this discussion because I wanted to give you an idea what me and may be others expect from a distro like kubuntu. If you can communicate this to the kubuntu team it would be great. I decided to try kubuntu also because kde3 is now pretty mature and what I get now is that it'll be gone ... well this is the thing I wanted to prevent. I didn't read anything about it on the kubuntu web page and my point was that the kubuntu team should work on publicity, because few people with less linux experience than me fall into the trap by installing it and getting hurt. I'm poretty smart to avoid it, but I did not expected that kubuntu does not follow the same policy as ubuntu (i.e. no LST) so put this also on your page please. This way you could make a favour to a lot of people, really!

I think one week of discussing the topic is more than enough.

The suggestion that I may stay with kde3 is still to be proven/checked and only the idea that I have to test something is not making me happy at all, so I'll think about what I'll do with kubuntu next. I would prefer to concentrate to my work and not be kind of tester. Unfortunately the neglecting way of thinking that spreads out trough the developers community is making me very sad. It seems that working is somehow 50% for some people or developers and I reject to accept this. I hope this time I put it clear. And I still do not understand why people move to somthing new without improving the old, but this is another discussion.

Think about what I'm saind and do not get personally affected by it.

reagards