Fwd: Re: [kubuntu-users] UPDATE: Announcement from www.kubuntu.de

Tue Apr 11 15:50:42 BST 2006

Sorry for top-posting, but at first i wanted to comment on some specific 
things, now i think it's better to not do so.

I think you are missing the point, as are many other people (disclaimer: i do 
know Andreas, tough i'm not that close).

The problem is not some specific thing - its a general feeling the kubuntu.de 
dev's have. They feel kubuntu is still really a second-class ubuntu citizen 
when it comes to support from ubuntu/canonical, while Canonical STATES it 
does support Kubuntu fully. This (real or not) discrepancy is what created 
this problem. When someone forgets to add amu's account, HE thinks its 
because the rather let him wait for some time than to help him, while that 
might not be the case. If such things happen more often, they add up.

So this is about subjective feelings, not about some too-late account or stuff 
like that. Its about the percieved support from Canonical, not the real 
support (tough it might very well be the case Canonical supports Gnome more 
than KDE). I'd like to stress that i'm not saying Andreas is over-reacting, 
nor that he is right - i am just trying to get clear what is going on.

Canonical and Andreas and his team should have a real (preferably 
face-to-face) talk about the support from Canonical to Kubuntu. They should 
try to find out WHY exactly Andreas feels Kubuntu does not get the support it 
deserves, and why Canonical thinks it does. I'm totally positive they can 
find some common ground, and see why both disagree. There should be a way to 
solve this without fighting. Canonical can do some things to fix the 
problems, like promoting kubuntu more clearly on the ubuntu.com homepage and 
the 'deriviate' pages like ubuntu.de and making it easier to contribute to 
Kubuntu.

Tough I wouldn't say I'm very experienced with mediation, I've had some 
training, and I'm willing to help. The prefered way to do so (face to face) 
might prove to be difficult (I live in the Netherlands).

greetings,

Jos Poortvliet

Op dinsdag 11 april 2006 16:29, schreef Jonathan Jesse:
> To save Riddell time and making him to stop working on more important
> things. This was just posted to Kubuntu-Devel by amu and this was posted
> earlier to Kubuntu-Users.
>
> ----------  Forwarded Message  ----------
>
> Subject: Re: [kubuntu-users] UPDATE: Announcement from www.kubuntu.de
> Date: Tuesday 11 April 2006 10:23
> From: Jonathan Riddell <jriddell at ubuntu.com>
> To: Kubuntu Help and User Discussions <kubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com>
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 02:08:30PM +0200, Mirjam W?ckerlin wrote:
>
> Can I suggest you pass this stuff by me before posting it publicly so
> I can point out the faults?
>
> Negative articles on osnews and distrowatch etc do not help Kubuntu.
>
> > We all from the kubuntu.de - team have poursuited this aim together,
> > but most of the work has been done by Andreas Mueller (amu). He is not
> > only co-founder and unpaid developer of the Kubuntu-project, but he's
> > also hosting this website with current Kubuntu-LiveCDs and he's taking
> > over all the arising expenses himself. Gnoppix, another "baby" of
> > Andreas Mueller, now in possession of Canonical, but still being
> > financed by Andreas.
>
> Unpaid isn't quite right, he did have a contract with Canonical when
> Kubuntu started.
>
> I'm happy to host any Kubuntu live CDs (localised, updated KDE
> packages etc) on kubuntu.org and now that
> amu has got his account back he can do it directly.
>
> I've not seen any request to have Canonical host kubuntu.de but I'm
> sure they'd be happy to.
>
> > During our endeavours for Kubuntu, several requests to Canonical were
> > made. All the mails were addressed to Mrs. Jane Silber, CCO of
> > Canonical.
>
> Poor Jane is a busy person, she probably doesn't much wish to ansewr
> random accusationary e-mails.
>
> > Developers
> > Kubuntu needs more paid developers. Even though Canonical says that
> > there is one paid developer for GNOME and one KDE (seb128/jriddell),
> > the rest of the paid developers rather tend to support GNOME. It would
> > be reasonable to pay at least 2-3 more developers to balance, because
> > only providing KDE-packages is not enough.
>
> Everything needs more developers but Canonical wants to be self
> sufficient, since they don't yet make much money from Kubuntu it
> doesn't make much sense to put in more resources.  It is also the case
> that all of the ubuntu team helps with Kubuntu as needed, from the
> buildds to packaging openoffice and making the CDs everyone helps out.
>
> > What is the meaning behind Mark Shuttleworth's commitment, that he
> > wants to make "Kubuntu a 1st class distribution"? Is he stepping back
> > from his former declaration that Kubuntu is a pure community project
> > (http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/hoary-release.php), and is it
> > planned to integrate Kubuntu permanently into the Canonical support
> > system?
>
> That Kubuntu will get shipit support the same as Ubuntu, that will
> only happen if the live installer gets finished which I've now had to
> time time out of to answer this.
>
> Kubuntu is supported commercially by Canonical same as Ubuntu, ask
> them for a support contract and they'll be very happy to oblige.
>
> > Restricted independence of the project
> > Kubuntu should be a little more independent as a project. Of course we
> > understand that money has to be made at some point ? you can not only
> > spend the money, you need to get it back somehow.
> > But the decision should be a technical one in the first place, which
> > is geared to special markets (concretely: the SMIME support which is
> > important e.g. in Germany).
>
> This contradicts the last paragraph.  SMIME support uses unreleased
> software so I chose to remove it, not Canonical.
>
> > Sponsoring
> > What about having another big sponsor on board? Generally, this could
> > happen. Is Kubuntu a community project or are there financial interests
> > behind though?
>
> Please go ahead.  If anyone wants to sponsor another developer or
> three that would obviously be welcome.
>
> > ISO-Updates
> > Is there any problem to integrate patches and security updates into
> > the install- and live-iso's and to provide updates of the iso's after
> > 3 months? Bugs do happen.
>
> There are planned updated breezy CDs after the password problem was
> found in the installer, but Colin hasn't had time to make them.
> Otherwise breezy-updates and breezy-security are available, the idea
> of a release is that it's a release and is final.
>
> > Community contribution (portal software)
> > Except Jonathan Riddell and Andreas Mueller nobody can change the
> > website of kubuntu (kubuntu.org ? Andreas has gained his account back
> > now, after more than two months).
> > If someone can't make packages, that doesn't mean he can't do anything
> > for the project. A lot of volunteers wanted to contribute, but they
> > couldn't because they have no access.
> > A portal software solve this problem. This software could ideally
> > provide a direct translation (possibly with connection to Rosetta) and
> > at the same time allow the export to the official documentation. We
> > are already working on the realisation of such a portal.
>
> Whenever someone says "I'd like to translate kubuntu.org into another
> langauge" I say "great, here's the sources please work out a nice
> scheme to make that work".  And nobody ever gets back to me.  If you
> want to work on this please please do but so far I've just had idle
> promises.
>
> > Trademarks
> > On the site of ubuntuusers.de it is stated that they are the "official
> > german portal of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu and all other Ubuntu
> > derivatives". None of the concerned party is even known with a
> > nickname on #kubuntu-devel or #kubuntu-de.
> > There is a contract between Matthias Urlichs, Julius Bloch, Marcus
> > Fischer and Canonical
> > http://static.ubuntu-de.org/cms/files/00/05/52/agreement.pdf) in order
> > to give them the possibility to use the name "Ubuntu" for the
> > association "ubuntu Deutschland e.V." over which the three preside.
> > The association itself is hosting the portal ubuntuusers.de.
> > But this contract doesn't entitle "ubuntu Deutschland e.V." to the
> > names Kubuntu, Xubuntu and to all the other names of ubuntu
> > derivatives.
> > Therefore we request rectification on the sites of the association as
> > well as on the site of ubuntuusers.de: that they have nothing to do
> > with Kubuntu and other derivatives of Canonical Trademarks and Ubuntu
> > Foundation distributions, since they are only supporting
> > ubuntuusers.de and no other community projects around Ubuntu and its
> > derivatives.
>
> I don't know the details here, it sounds like personalities are
> getting in the way.  Kubuntu can't live without Ubuntu, equally Ubuntu
> loco groups needs to understand that Kubuntu communities will often
> want their own websites and IRC channels etc, I suggest you
> work with ubuntu Deutschland e.V. to make sure they have the trademark
> and that they support the kubuntu.de site.
>
> > Moreover, there exist some so-called "domaingrabber" in Germany which
> > only want to make profit with the brand Kubuntu. Why are they not
> > admonished and closed?
>
> I've not heard of that, who is it and what are they doing?
> The kubuntu.de and kubuntu.eu domains are both owned by Amu so I don't
> see the problem.
> Probably Canonical is too busy to start a lawsuit in Germany.
>
> As I see it you have no valid complains in this list so please reopen
> kubuntu.de.  (From talking to other German Kubuntu users they seem to
> suggest that they'll just start using ubuntuusers.de if this nonsense
> continues.)
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
> kubuntu-users mailing list
> kubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-users
>
> -------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Your mode of life will be changed for the better because of good news soon.
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