uwe.geercken at datamelt.com
uwe.geercken at datamelt.com
Mon Oct 19 20:16:18 BST 2009
I am an outsider, so I can not say a lot other than what I already
said in another mail: stop fighting and start working.
but I do want to raise a point here: I have been trying to help. I
sent out a couple of messages indicating my will to help where ever I
could be helpful. as an outsider, I don't know where to start. nobody
contacted me, no one reacted. I would need somebody to take me by the
hand to get me started. I applied for the list - nothing happened. So
I contacted Mark Shuttleworth, he reacted, but then again nothing
Anyway. I for myself would like to look forward. I have many skills.
Tell me what I can do, help me get started and you have two more hands.
Zitat von David Van Assche <dvanassche at gmail.com>:
> I tend to stay out of internal politics, prefering to actually contribute
> through code, documentation, bug squashing or whatever other tasks a
> volunteer can help with. But clearly the recent change of attitude by some
> 'rogue' members warrants a response. Like others on the list, I don't see
> the wiki clean up as the be all and end all of edubuntu tasks that need to
> be addressed. There are literally hundreds of items that need to be
> addressed, and just to list some of the more important ones:
> 1. Edubuntu Handbook to be updated, remove LTSP parts and link from external
> upstream documentation.
> 2. Update Website to incorporate news, especially the recent roadmap
> explanation posted by Stephane.
> 3. Update website to list applications on the Edubuntu DVD (basically follow
> existing Intrepid and Jaunty application pages)
> 4. Update any howtos that explain/teach basic tasks in edubuntu (Something
> similar to http://www.linux-for-education.org/course/view.php?id=79)
> 5. Along with the above mentioned howto task, the easiest way would be to
> link to and help build linux-for-education.org which is supposed to be a
> moodle course based landing page for anything educational in the linux
> Arena. We could of course create our own Moodle Landing page and link to
> that from the Edubuntu website, and I believe there are plans to do that,
> but either way, Moodle courses are easily movable, so any work done now,
> will not be lost.
> 6. Analyze and review applications to be included in future Edubuntu
> 7. Squash existing bugs, test Karmic Edubuntu thoroughly, and post opinions,
> reviews, etc to this list
> 8. Work on artwork, including icon sets, menu layout, backgrounds
> 9. Help to fix Edubuntu wiki
> I haven't mentioned any coding/packaging tasks there, though that clearly
> should be up top. The point here is that though the wiki cleanup is
> important, I wouldn't say it deserves priority #1
> Anyway, people like Scott (-not- sbalneaves) would do well to involve
> themselves in 'fixing' the problem, rather than spewing destructive
> criticism at every possible turn of events. All I've ever seen from your
> emails is reasons as to why the people who really are working on things (the
> leadership you call them, though non would consider themselves that) are
> doing it wrong. If that's the case, why don't YOU show us how its done?
> Not to belittle Ace's enthusiasm or involvment, there are many folks
> involved with many tasks that are helping to make edubuntu better. They tend
> not to need constant attention or repetitive broadcasting of their actions,
> but perhaps that is what is needed, if otherwise the general vibe that
> people come away with is that if they are silent, they must not be doing
> So... if its really required, perhaps we should list the folks working on
> Edubuntu, and what it is they are working on, so there is some more
> visibility, and there are less thoughtless emails like the the one I'm
> responding to (perhaps due to being in the dark about what's really going on
> under the edubuntu covers, so to speak.)
> kind regards,
> David Van Assche
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 6:22 PM, R. Scott Belford <scott at hosef.org> wrote:
>> Mark Shuttleworth, are you listening? The Edubuntu 'Leadership' has
>> created the single greatest failure of an Education focused Open
>> Source project I have seen in my more than 10 years of FOSS endeavors.
>> Please end this project and the *ubuntu branding before you further
>> damage our community as a whole. Otherwise, I consider this project
>> to be on the state of becoming an adversary to the responsible
>> advocacy and adoption of Free and Open Source Software.
>> The fact that one of the most focused and deliberate volunteers I have
>> seen come to the Edubuntu-users mailing list, Ace Suares, is now
>> leaving is testimony to this failure. For years, since the released
>> debacle of 7.10 that all but ruined existing LTSP 4.2 setups, the
>> Edubuntu-users mailing list has become a place for your developers and
>> 'leaders' to defend their actions, to denigrate 'users', and to
>> completely hijack the good intent of the community. I have attempted
>> to bring this to your executives' decisions at various conferences, I
>> have discussed it with your Canadian support team, and I have made
>> these comments on the edubuntu-users list.
>> The general feedback from the active leaders and developers
>> representing Canonical and Edubuntu is that we're doing the heavy
>> lifting, that we are right, and that the user's commitment or
>> expectation is at fault. It's tragic because of late you have had the
>> likes of Scott Balneaves making yet another extraordinary promise to
>> get Edubuntu to a usable state for the breadth of hardware you claim
>> to support. As it stands Edubuntu is still unusable for the average
>> teacher with less than an hour a week for learning and maintenance,
>> and one of your "leaders" just ran off one of the people trying to fix
>> the wiki that people turn to for help.
>> I don't quit, and I've been committed to K12FOSS since 2000. I'll
>> continue monitoring this, the debian-edu, and the K12OSN lists for
>> trends, progress, and the evolution of an education community around
>> FOSS. I also don't cheer lead for bullies, and we have bullying going
>> on here.
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 4:24 AM, Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)
>> <jonathan at ubuntu.com> wrote:
>> > Hi Ace
>> > (I'm cc'ing you since I don't know whether you're on the list anymore)
>> > Ace Suares wrote:
>> >> See http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/10/02/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t17:59
>> >> On the agenda was a proposal from LaserJock, which would resolve the
>> >> deadlock around cleaning up the wiki. It was not addressed. The EC
>> >> totally ignored the agenda.
>> > When I read your e-mail the first time I actually thought that I missed
>> > it on the agenda. If you check
>> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Meeting/Agenda there's a
>> > section called "Agenda next meeting" and "Agenda 2009-11-09". The wiki
>> > item was actually under "Agenda 2009-11-09", which is only next month.
>> > I'm not sure where that date comes from, or why we're splitting the
>> > agenda, or who split it up like that. We usually put it on one date and
>> > just remove the items that are discussed already, leaving unresolved
>> > items for the next meeting.
>> > Additionally, I think it's very unfair to say that the issue was
>> > ignored. We've already addressed the issues that blocked you from doing
>> > any work when discussing it on the edubuntu-devel mailing list. We won't
>> > be discussing every single wiki page before changing or moving it, no
>> > one has the time for that. Instead, we would rather have you follow the
>> > guidelines we have discussed and using your own judgement.
>> >> Well, nothing has happened. No comments on the wiki page. No talk about
>> >> either Jordan or mine proposal in the first EC meeting in months.
>> >> When I started this, I thought I would clean up the wiki in about three
>> >> intensive weeks.
>> > Ace, that's part of the problem. You moved a great deal of wiki pages
>> > without discussing it with anyone or getting more feedback on the issue.
>> > When working in a team, you can't decide to do big things on your own,
>> > even if you end up doing most of the work. There's a good reason why "Be
>> > considerate" and "Be collaborative" are two of the major six points of
>> > the Ubuntu Code of Conduct.
>> >> Due to total inadequacy of the governing body of Edubuntu, this project
>> >> is still in limbo.
>> >> Actually, there is only ONE person stopping me every time I move
>> >> forward. All the others either don't care or give some praise and
>> >> encouragement.
>> >> I'm done with this bunch. Some very common sociodynamics are at work.
>> >> Pioneers Syndrome comes to mind. These sociodynamics do really crumble
>> >> the structure of Edubuntu and stop (some) new people getting involved.
>> > I'm not familiar with the concept of "Pioneers Syndrome". I tried to
>> > look it up but couldn't find any reference. I agree that we've had some
>> > problems, but we've been very public and honest about it and we've
>> > acknowledged that Edubuntu's problems won't be sorted out over night.
>> > From where I stand, we've made some very good progress recently, a big
>> > change from where we've been the last 2 years before that. I honestly
>> > don't mind you (or anyone) providing constructive criticism, but I don't
>> > believe that you are being very constructive with your current tone.
>> >> I am very sorry that this is all happening. I hope you can solve your
>> >> internal deadlock one day and grow again as a community. I might join
>> >> then, again.
>> >> Thanks to all the people who sent positive thoughts the last couple of
>> >> months. And sorry for leaving you with a half-done wiki. Not my choice.
>> > The choice is all yours, really. Firstly, you made a large amount of
>> > changes to the wiki, and then you choose to leave it uncompleted,
>> > leaving us with more work than there was before you started working on
>> > That's where the sixth major point in the Code of Conduct comes in,
>> > "Step down considerably". From my perspective, saying mean things to
>> > those who have only tried to help you (Jordan for one has gone out of
>> > his way to try to accommodate you) and then wanting to leave things you
>> > have started without any form of handover or discussion is not in the
>> > spirit of the code. I note from your Launchpad page that you have
>> > signed the code of conduct so I assume that you should be familiar with
>> > The last thing I want to do is use the CoC to do any kind of policing,
>> > and that's not what's happening here. I do want to note, however, that
>> > being impatient and demanding is not the way to make progress in a team
>> > and in a community. It would be sad to see you go, but if you're not
>> > willing to work as part of a team, then unfortunately our hands are tied.
>> > -Jonathan
>> >  http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
>> >  https://launchpad.net/~acesuares<https://launchpad.net/%7Eacesuares>
>> > --
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