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Hello Mark,<br>
<br>
please find my comments inline.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-08-22 22:28, Mark F wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I'm a new Xubuntu user. I've been using Lubuntu for
over a year. I saw this topic in the mailing-list archives and
thought this post (questions, observations) might be welcome
here. I think it ties into marketing?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I looked at Mint Xfce and, to be honest, I like it *much*
more. The only reason I went with Xubuntu is the larger
community of support (Ubuntu's forums). I'd rather try to make
Xubuntu better than to contribute to a fork.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What I'm wondering is whether you guys ever evaluate Mint
Xfce and consider evolving the desktop in that direction? Is
it ever even discussed? (Is there a way to find a past
discussion like that in the mailing-list archive?).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The desktop ideology has been discussed many times, often in small
pieces rather than a discussion whether some other existing desktop
is something the Xubuntu desktop should more or less imitate. With
these discussions, the Xubuntu desktop has evolved to what it is
now. Of course that doesn't mean nothing can be changed; we've
reverted changes before.<br>
<br>
The development list archives can be found at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/">https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/</a>. Unfortunately
Mailman doesn't have a search feature, but the message subject lines
can be used to finding some stuff.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>For example:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>- Wisker menu progresses right to left (categories are on
right open to reveal contents on the left). Using MintX,
right-to-left stood out to me immediately as more intuitive.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't use Whisker myself, but I think this is configurable.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
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type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>- Right/left clicking on taskbar entries seems
unintuitive to me. It seems like left clicks are passed
through the applet and into the underlying taskbar. (Right
clicks access the applet's options?). MintX seems to have
addressed this. It works differently.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Please specify differently? What in the left/right clicks is
unintuitive for you?<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>- Wisker menu's categories automatically reveal content by
mousing over each one. (No click required).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is configurable via Whisker's settings.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>- How is inclusion into Wisker's "Settings" and "System"
chosen? It's like everything is in Settings. I'm not sure I
could differentiate between those two categories. But, it
seems like no differentiation is occuring. (But, it is because
two items are in "System.").</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Theoretically everything should be under Settings. This is
controlled by the so-called desktop files in the system. If you
install custom/non-default software to Xubuntu, it's likely that
they will appear under System though. We do try to gather everything
that's shipped by default to Settings.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>- A lot of things seem unintuitive to me. What's called
"[Distro] Software Center" in other distros is just "Software"
in Xubuntu. It's in the "Favorites" category, not in "System"
nor "Settings."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- The "Software" tool seems very slow and uninformative
compared to Lubuntu's "Software Center" (And MintX's). I tried
to install Keepass2, which was available in Lubutu's software
center. It's not in Xubuntu's. </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div>- I found a Keepass package, but it made me authenticate
with my Ubuntu single-signon. It wouldn't authenticate me,
giving a repeated error (even though I can login to the
Ubuntu One site). I like the goal behind this. But, it's a
free package. I shouldn't have to go through these hurdles.
It's a *big* problem if I can't access my passwords in a new
install. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The Software software (no pun intended) is created and maintained by
Canonical, and the Xubuntu team is not involved in the development
at all. The only thing we do with it is some quality assurance tasks
to make sure it more or less "works" with Xubuntu for the most basic
tasks.<br>
<br>
Software indeed does not show all packages installable on a system;
it's designed to list GUI packages only. Apparently this sometimes
fails and stuff like Keepass2 isn't listed.<br>
<br>
The default package manager has been under discussion many times,
but so far the team hasn't been convinced enough that the other ones
would be good enough for the beginner users to make the switch.
Power users usually have a preferred package manager anyway, and
they can find their way to install it. If you are looking for GUI
alternatives, take a look at Synaptic.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>- Menu bar on top. Not easy to figure out how to put it on
the bottom. Not "mainstream" if you're trying to appeal to new
users (familiar with Windows)?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Personally, I think it's a slippery slope to start deciding on
defaults based on the potential new users from other non-Linux
operating systems. To clarify, I'm welcoming all Windows users to
use Xubuntu, I just don't think imitating Windows visually is the
way we can attract new users.<br>
<br>
As you implied, Xubuntu does have (at least) decent support, and if
the panel position makes or breaks the deal for somebody, we can
handle instructing the users who can't figure it out themselves (or
find the answer online).<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So, I'm just wondering (in terms of marketing, appealing to
more users), has this topic ever come up before? Evaluating
what draws people to other Xfce environments? What the others
are doing right?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I would say this is done fairly regularly by some people on the
team, though it's not an active task that we schedule to do.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Why they chose to fork (and duplicate efforts)? Would it
make sense to solicit surveys (instead of testimonials)?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
"Fork" is a strong (and a bit wrong) word; we are mostly talking
about default settings, not changing any code or any settings
permanently or irreversibly.<br>
<br>
Different people like different things and as you say below, there's
no way to make everybody happy. I would imagine running a survey
about things you have mentioned (for example) would leave the team
with a mixed set of results and with no clear idea in which
direction to go.<br>
<br>
That said, I don't understand how such surveys could replace
testimonials or how they are comparable.<br>
<br>
The surveys would in the ideal (though unrealistic) situation let
the Xubuntu team know what the users want and make Xubuntu better –
for the existing users at least.<br>
<br>
The testimonials would be used to tell potential Xubuntu users why
other people like Xubuntu, and draw more people who like what we are
doing already to Xubuntu.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I hope this doesn't sound like I'm complaining. I
understand no desktop will meet everyone's needs. But, this
thread implies outreach, seeking to gain popularity.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
While marketing can be about outreach and popularity, I wouldn't say
that would describe the kind of marketing Xubuntu has done so far
and I don't see this changing. (While Xubuntu wouldn't exist without
the users we have now, the future of Xubuntu doesn't rely on
marketing being successful, as opposed to a company that needs to
sell its products to be able to cover their costs.)<br>
<br>
And because we do not rely on successful marketing, we can focus on
doing what we believe in instead of letting potential users define
what Xubuntu should become.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>MintX seems more popular (according to distrowatch?). I'm
just wondering if this discussion has ever occurred? (I.e.,
should Xubuntu try to incorporate any of MintX's features?).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
As I said before, all the time. As an example, it isn't a long time
ago we introduced Whisker into Xubuntu.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Is it possible to install MintX's desktop in Xubuntu? Would
it make sense to offer that desktop more clearly (or a desktop
made specifically to be more like MintX, so people who might
choose that distro could more easily choose Xubuntu?).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Again, what we are talking about is mostly configuration, not
differences in code. Technically you could create a package that
shipped different defaults, but I'm not sure if that would be worth
it or something the Xubuntu team would do.<br>
<br>
Instead of trying to ship many different setups and configurations,
people should embrace the configurability in Xfce and create their
own. The default configuration is "only" designed to be something
sensible.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Again, I hope I'm not causing a problem. This topic seemed
to be about advocacy, increasing relevancy. Since I've just
been comparing Xfce desktops, the topic of "why is Xubuntu's
desktop the way it is?" seemed like a natural question. It
makes me wonder if anyone has gone back to "square one" and
questioned everything. (When I see everything lumped into
"Settings," I get the impression that discussion hasn't
occured. The desktop is just an evolution and hasn't been
re-thought from the ground up?).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The desktop is indeed an evolution, but we're always re-evaluating
it as we go. The desktop ideology we are shipping is pretty much
what we want to ship and no dramatic changes have been necessary. If
the desktop becomes something we don't believe in any more, then a
complete re-evaluation will be done.<br>
<br>
That said, all ideas are always welcome and heard.<br>
<br>
Ultimately the people who make Xubuntu define what Xubuntu is. We
always welcome new contributors too!<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABWHGPSqHJRbyJDMKhkzdN6KyAmSbBxrnvB67F3zwHuN+yB94Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I look forward to reading responses. I just feel like
something is missing. Ubuntu has the support and immediacy of
security patches. But, Mint has the appeal to new users (IMO).
I just wonder if anyone has tried to bridge that gap. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks!</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Finally, discussion is always welcome, no need to think you're
causing problems.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Pasi<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Pasi Lallinaho (knome) › <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://open.knome.fi/">http://open.knome.fi/</a>
Leader of Shimmer Project › <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://shimmerproject.org/">http://shimmerproject.org/</a>
Xubuntu Website Lead › <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://xubuntu.org/">http://xubuntu.org/</a></pre>
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