<html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">More comments and replies inline. On 2014-04-25 20:26, Elfy wrote: </div> <blockquote cite="mid:535A9AB4.7070804@btinternet.com" type="cite"> <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Some comments in line On 24/04/14 23:26, Pasi Lallinaho wrote: </div> <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Hello there, during the meeting today [1] there was some discussion to set up a new, low-traffic, high-importance list for the Xubuntu team. Only team members could post to the list, but everybody could subscribe to read the list. Topics and tasks for the list would include: * Voting on project-related questions (currently done during the meetings)</pre> </blockquote> This should only be members of -team anyway (relates to a later point) </blockquote> I'm bringing this up because with a mailing list where only team members could send email, votes would be much saner to run than in a list where everybody can have an email. The reason we might want to use a mailing list instead of voting during a meeting is that in that case, everybody in the team would have an equal opportunity to vote regardless of their timezone. <blockquote cite="mid:535A9AB4.7070804@btinternet.com" type="cite"> <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> * Announcing meeting minutes and monthly team reports</pre> </blockquote> Shouldn't those be for the Xubuntu Community </blockquote> As said, everybody should be able to subscribe (think: read) the list. There are many -announce lists in the Ubuntu ecosystem, and IMO, they work pretty well. I would imagine there are a lot of people who want to follow the Xubuntu development, but would not like the occasional outburst of borderline, or way irrelevant mails to this list. The new list would allow this. <blockquote cite="mid:535A9AB4.7070804@btinternet.com" type="cite"> <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> * Calls for testing, or request for other input</pre> </blockquote> This will not work with regard to -qa - we use more than just the dev list to call for testing. Also get more response to calls from testing from those people than anyone in -team. We'd have to get people to subscribe to a new list - that likely wouldn't be of much use - just to get testing calls. </blockquote> I guess I expressed this in a bit awkward, and incorrect way. What I was thinking at was mostly developer input for any issues some of the team members would like to get, eg. about implementing a specific feature. If we need commentary from outside the team, we can always temporarily allow certain more people to post to the list, or alternatively, manually moderate and accept those emails. The testing I was referring to was mostly preliminary testing for stuff that is about to land in an official testing PPA, or the archive. Though I also had in mind the same thing as with the previous question: Some people want to follow Xubuntu development, but would prefer a low traffic list. <blockquote cite="mid:535A9AB4.7070804@btinternet.com" type="cite"> <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> * Other important project announcements</pre> </blockquote> These should be announced to the Xubuntu Community, </blockquote> Again, read the stuff above. Also, nothing stop us from posting to multiple lists. Mails to the -team list would be good for searchability and completeness. <blockquote cite="mid:535A9AB4.7070804@btinternet.com" type="cite"> <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Some of the pros of setting up this new list include: * The team is currently heavily organized in IRC, moving more of the important communication to a low-traffic mailing list could make contributing less exclusive * A low traffic list would be easier to read for the team members as well as other people digging up decicions and important milestones later</pre> </blockquote> These points are the ones that made me think of this in the first place. Communication between us in the last cycle left something to be desired - my original thoughts re this new list relate to that only, side benefits being inclusiveness re meetings - during the last cycle we were lucky if we got a third of the team there at meetings. Though opening up a new list to more than the things that -team need to discuss will soon negate that 'pro' </blockquote> I think this is a good point. However, I don't think the "pro" will be negated. Think it the other way: the list should only have things that the -team needs to discuss. Announcing meeting minutes in the list as well as some other, but rare, pieces of information is also helpful for the team members. Ultimately, having it all in one place increases searchability and, more importantly, transparency. <blockquote cite="mid:535A9AB4.7070804@btinternet.com" type="cite"> <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">There are some potential caveats to the new list: * Subject/topic partly overlaps with the current developer list</pre> </blockquote> Not if we work it properly it won't. <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> * Not allowing people who aren't team members could make the list seem exclusive (though commenting on issues would still be possible on the development list)</pre> </blockquote> Some things are exclusive <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Alternative options include: * Start using a speficic "tag" for the aforementioned communication (and possibly automoderate non-team members' posts with that tag)</pre> </blockquote> Not at all sure how a tag will help. All that means is that a mail that people are ignoring has a tag - and it's still hidden in the list and the mists of time. <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> * Increase the strictness of the moderation in the developer list to make it lower traffic and more relevant (con: probably affects list atmosphere and makes the thresold to post too(?) high)</pre> </blockquote> I'm not sure that this will help to increase communication - which is what my proposal was about. </blockquote> Agreed, it's not a perfect solution. Especially considering that it might not be possible to filter out mails with that tag sent by non-team members, and/or would face us with more moderation work. <blockquote cite="mid:535A9AB4.7070804@btinternet.com" type="cite"> <blockquote cite="mid:53598FB3.8010501@shimmerproject.org" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I hope we can get all the issues raised before the next meeting, and that everybody would have some kind of opinion before the next meeting in two weeks. Start discussing! Cheers, Pasi [1] <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2014-04-24">https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2014-04-24</a> </pre> </blockquote> This does all I suppose depend to some extent on what we do with regard to Trello, if we go that way then a mailing list will likely be unnecessary. It's certainly a lot easier to work with that - and see the current status of something that trawling a mailing list. </blockquote> I do agree that these two are partly related, but ultimately, I don't think we can compare them. AIUI, emails from Trello are like notifications of new messages/changes, and you would need to use a browser to see the actual changes. Emails to the -team mailing list would allow to have the content in your email. I would also imagine the content in the emails would be more thought out than a quick comment in Trello. That leads us to the next thing: we need both quick commenting and more thought out emails/commentary. This leads me thinking maybe we need both. At the end of the day, the new mailing list should be low-traffic. Daily communication should still happen in IRC, Trello, or other live medias. <blockquote cite="mid:535A9AB4.7070804@btinternet.com" type="cite"> Elfy. <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- Ubuntu Forum Council Member Xubuntu QA Lead</pre> <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> </blockquote> Cheers, Pasi <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- Pasi Lallinaho (knome) » <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://open.knome.fi/">http://open.knome.fi/</a> Leader of Shimmer Project and Xubuntu » <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://shimmerproject.org/">http://shimmerproject.org/</a> Graphic artist, webdesigner, Ubuntu member » <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://xubuntu.org/">http://xubuntu.org/</a></pre> </body> </html>