Hi Eero,  I'm excited to hear from you and that you're interested in working with Xubuntu. You make some excellent points and I most certainly will take advantage of your expertise! :)  Give me a shout the next time you're on IRC. Thanks, Cody <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Eero Tamminen <<a href="mailto:oak@helsinkinet.fi">oak@helsinkinet.fi</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Hi, <div class="Ih2E3d"> On Thursday 27 March 2008, Jim Campbell wrote: > I'd first like to start off this e-mail by announcing the Xubuntu > community meeting was a *huge* success. We had roughly two dozen people > take part (including old, current, and new faces) and a number of other > individuals who sent in e-mails or left a quick IRC message to let us > know that they were unable to attend but would be following up with much > interest. After just under an hour of constructive discussion led by Jono > Bacon and several free form votes, I'm happy to present following mission > statement for Xubuntu: > >     "To produce an easy to use distribution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce > as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and > performance, with a particular focus on low memory footprint. The > integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and > matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu. Xubuntu > will be built and developed as part of the wider Ubuntu community, based > around the ideals and values of Ubuntu." </div>Level of integration and especially usability can often be subjective matters, but sometimes it's very clear which of the alternatives is better in these respects. However, performance and memory usage are something which can be measured[1]. I think having them in the goals requires specifying what kind of test-cases and tools&measurements should be used to evaluate them. I.e. decisions related to them should be based on facts, not rubbish like "I feel gnome libs are heavy...". Maemo "Quality Awareness" document could be looked for examples: <a href="http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/4-x/quality_awareness.html" target="_blank">http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/4-x/quality_awareness.html</a> [1] Some performance metrics: - system & desktop startup time[2] - system & desktop memory usage[2] - application startup time - application responsiveness - application memory usage - how application CPU & memory usage correlates to its data size i.e.  scalability (e.g. archiver memory usage in relation to archive size) - power usage (wakeups and polling can affect laptop battery usage  dramatically, but this is getting important also for servers and desktops) - performance over network (for LTSP setups) There are tools to measure and analyze all of these, some can be a bit hard to use though.  Anyway, it needs to be prioritized what kind of performance Xubuntu cares about.  Is power usage important?  What about LTSP stuff? In what amount of memory (most) applications should work? Also, if some non-gnome app initially takes less memory, but with larger sets of data takes significantly more memory than the gnome-variant, I don't feel it's the right one for Xubuntu. [2] System part comes from Ubuntu and has unfortunately pretty large effect     on these measurements. [...] <div class="Ih2E3d">> <a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Xubuntu_2008-03-26" target="_blank">https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Xubuntu_2008-03-26</a>. </div>"19:19   meborc  i believe the main fight was in either including or excluding some gnome applications... this should also be somehow said in the statement!" Well, to me it seemed that the main issue of "the fight" was that the changes were not: - presented to community before hand so that they could comment on what  issues the changes would/could have, what changes would be needed in  documentation, support etc - reasoned (until the reasoning for them had been asked for many times) - backed up with facts about actual performance/memory usage improvements "19:30   cody-somerville IMHO, I don't think we have the expertise to have a focus on performance." I can help here.  I don't run Xubuntu myself currently, but I have a lot of experience on this area (what tools to use, when and how to interpret the results), please use it. "19:36   j1mc    i get the feeling that, if we have a leader, that they will likely have the final say on some technical matters, and that everyone might not agree with their perspective, but that is part of having a leader." I wouldn't go as far as to say that they have the final say, instead they should have a veto on changes that: - haven't been presented to community for commenting, - don't contain enough/valid reasoning or - aren't aligned with the Xubuntu goals or (after presentation) the majority  of the community. The leader facilitates this kind of decision making and makes sure that the project goals and members are respected. If the community cannot produce a decision with his guidance, he has the final decision, but I think this is usually an indication that the matter should be postponed until there's more information or better design (or in current case, more focused vision :-)).        - Eero -- xubuntu-devel mailing list <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com">xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a> <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel</a> </blockquote></div>