<div>On 09/08/07, jmak <<a href="mailto:jozmak@gmail.com">jozmak@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> On 8/8/07, Jani Monoses <<a href="mailto:jani.monoses@gmail.com">jani.monoses@gmail.com</a>> wrote: > Because it came up in the other thread, and also because I have been thinking about it lately: > > > I started out with the 'no gnome dependencies' policy in addition to the no 'mono/java/kde' one > because most apps were covered by GTK only alternatives and we had to have some kind of > criteria. > > It is no doubt that having additional dependencies affect performance so while not very quantifiable > it made sense to avoid those apps. > > The disadvantages of having gnome deps (or any extra deps for that matter) are: > - size of packages on the CD (I have not looked at this lately, IIRC it was something along 20M or more, > I may be wrong though) > - installed size on disk (only a minor issue) > - startup time - GNOME deps mean an additional 25 or so shared objects linked to the app, all of whic are > processed at startup. The difference is noticable, especially slower CPUs. > - memory footprint - the same shared objects, even if possibly shared with other apps consume extra RAM, > IIRC between 500K and 2M per process using them. > > In case of long running processes these affect the memory used by the desktop permanently. In case of explicitely > started apps the main drawback is the startup speed. > > I have been thinking lately about using even more GNOME apps in Xubuntu. Until now in the past cycles we > picked evince, gnome-system-tools, gcalctool and some of the python tools specific to Ubuntu (update manager, > restricted manager). All of these have been previously - and in collaboration with upstream - been made > buildable with GTK only dependencies. There are some other in the queue for Gutsy if upstream GNOME accepts > some patches. > > There are two problems with having separate GTK apps (not GNOME ones built without GNOME libs) >  - duplication of effort. We would be better off if some apps were comaintained with Ubuntu. >  - the GTK apps are usually less featureful and less actively maintained (ex: xfburn, xarchiver) > > So we would gain by starting to use some GNOME apps while keeping Xfce core obviously. But we'd give up > some space on the CD (maybe not that bad) some memory and startup times. These will not help in making > Xubuntu lighter. That characterization has only been true when compared to GNOME or KDE though, with > python running in the base system (hplip daemon for HP printers ), firefox in the mix and the liveCD no longer > installing iwth 128M it is not really a light distro anymore. > > > So we have a choice of keeping it like now, only small GTK only apps and let the user add whatever else she needs > or start making a more complete and maintainable default at the cost of making it too heavy for some hw configurations. > > And by this I do not mean CD size or startup time or even short term memory use, those will probably not make much of a difference > but long running processes. Do we want gnome-power-manager and network-manager? IS Xubuntu widely used on laptops and wifi setups? > Do we want update-notifier (I am sure we do). All these are continually running and each eats up somewhere around 3-4 megs of RAM. > > The printing applet which is the default since feisty is also always running and is a python app, 4-5 megs probably. > > > From a developer perspective and long term the easiest would be to add in as many GNOME stuff as possible besides the Xfce core and thunar. > > What's best for most users we don't know. Some use Xubuntu because they like Xfce or hate the other desktops but they have powerful computers. > Other are more sensible to changes in RAM usage. > > I would like to hear feedback from more people, more importanlty from those who deploy many Xubuntu's either in LTSP setups or preinstalled > on old computers who have a better idea of what most people like dislike and would like to be changed. Personal opinions are ok as well > but those are often far too biased. > Here is an idea. Why don't we set up a poll and ask xubuntu users about the hardware they use. IF the majority use middle aged or newer computers, like me for instance, (mine is 5 years old and still runs happily under gnome kde and xfce) then add gnome components. If the majority still uses very ancient ones, then stick with the current setup.</blockquote><div> I think it is very difficult to reach most Xubuntu users with a poll. And anyway, even if it is not a majority that's running ancient computers, at least it's a big part, I guess we all agree on that. We'd be putting a large share of our user base in the cold if Xubuntu were to be made heavier. I do not really mind if Xubuntu was just created "to be shipped with Xfce", because I like Xfce. However, one of the most attractive features of Xfce to me, and I guess to most other Xfce users, is its speed. Not so much that my computer wouldn't be able to handle Gnome, but it just feels better if everything's snappy. </div> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">jmak -- <a href="http://jozmak.blogspot.com/">http://jozmak.blogspot.com/ </a> <a href="http://jozmak.googlepages.com/">http://jozmak.googlepages.com/</a> -- xubuntu-devel mailing list <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com">xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a> <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel"> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel</a> </blockquote></div> Regards -- Vincent