For the older system, I am currently running xubuntu-dapper on an AMD-K6II 300 processor with 64MB RAM and am satisfied with the results, however I do not use open office because it is to memory hungry for my tastes as well as it is just to slow on my older system.  I use abiword and it does everything that I need wihich is just average work.  I also agree that inkscape should be on the cd, not in the default install.  I have only the basic apps that come with the xubuntu installation and all is well. Most standard users do not require a huge office suite to just right letters and the like, that is more towards the businesses.  And since ubuntu and kubuntu are there as a choice, I think that OOo should not even be considered for inclusion, since it will be available through apt-get/synaptic after the system is installed, allowing the end-user to install it if they really need it. just my $0.02, minus gst (hehe) <div>On 2/10/06, <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> xubuntu-devel-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a> <<a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">xubuntu-devel-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Send xubuntu-devel mailing list submissions to        <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit        <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel</a> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to        <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">xubuntu-devel-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a> You can reach the person managing the list at        <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel-owner@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">xubuntu-devel-owner@lists.ubuntu.com</a> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of xubuntu-devel digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Mini survey (j Mak)   2. Re: Mini survey (Ricardo Valfreixo)   3. Re: Mini survey (Jani Monoses)   4. Re: Office (Collins Richey)   5. Re: Xubuntu Graphics (Mauricio Hernandez Z.)   6. Re: Office (Michael Moore)   7. Re: Office (Colin McDermott) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: j Mak <<a href="mailto:joz_mak@yahoo.ca" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> joz_mak@yahoo.ca</a>> To: <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:52:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mini survey <div> <div>Recently, I've converted my friend's 13 year old daughter to Linux because her windows got infected every one or two months with viruses and spy-ware. Now, she uses Ubuntu and happy because she can visit all the virus infected download sites without being afraid of getting viruses. But to make her satisfied I had to install a few additional programs like  Limewire, mplayer with the codecs and dvd libraries and F-Spot; now she can do the same things with Linux she got used to doing on the windows. This gave me a chance to learn about her and her friend's surfing and user habits, and helped me to figure what were the most important of programs teenagers couldn't live without. </div> <div></div> <div></div> <div>- a messenger program like Gaim for chatting</div> <div>- a file exchange program like Limewire</div> <div>- a good music player</div> <div>- a video program, like mplayer </div> <div>- an image viewer that can retrieve images from cameras, like F-Spot</div> <div></div> <div>If xubuntu is intended for the average users rather than specialists, I think the default applications should reflect this. From this point of view the Gimp, Inkscape, Dia are not even necessary to be included in the default setup. Those who want to use xubuntu as a graphic platform can easily download and install them from the repositories. More important are the basic apps that mainstream users, with all probability, will use everyday, like the ones I mentioned above. Because if they cannot do things they want out of the box they get quickly frustrated. </div> <div></div> <div> J. Mak</div> </div> <hr size="1">Find your next car at <a href="http://autos.yahoo.ca" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Yahoo! Canada Autos</a> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ricardo Valfreixo <<a href="mailto:ricardo@valfreixo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ricardo@valfreixo.com</a> > To: Xubuntu Development Discussion <<a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:02:00 +0000 Subject: Re: Mini survey Ok good point. i agree with that. I'm a web developer/coder and a content writer but this are my needs. i do agree that it is not the common needs. and i do have apt-get to solve all my probs. We can even put a copy/paste line on the wiki to turn xubuntu on a graphic station, office station, multimedia station, file sharing station, etc etc etc Vx On 2/10/06, j Mak <<a href="mailto:joz_mak@yahoo.ca" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">joz_mak@yahoo.ca</a>> wrote: > > > Recently, I've converted my friend's 13 year old daughter to Linux because > her windows got infected every one or two months with viruses and spy-ware. > Now, she uses Ubuntu and happy because she can visit all the virus infected > download sites without being afraid of getting viruses. But to make her > satisfied I had to install a few additional programs like  Limewire, mplayer > with the codecs and dvd libraries and F-Spot; now she can do the same things > with Linux she got used to doing on the windows. This gave me a chance to > learn about her and her friend's surfing and user habits, and helped me to > figure what were the most important of programs teenagers couldn't live > without. > > > - a messenger program like Gaim for chatting > - a file exchange program like Limewire > - a good music player > - a video program, like mplayer > - an image viewer that can retrieve images from cameras, like F-Spot > > If xubuntu is intended for the average users rather than specialists, I > think the default applications should reflect this. From this point of view > the Gimp, Inkscape, Dia are not even necessary to be included in the default > setup. Those who want to use xubuntu as a graphic platform can easily > download and install them from the repositories. More important are the > basic apps that mainstream users, with all probability, will use everyday, > like the ones I mentioned above. Because if they cannot do things they want > out of the box they get quickly frustrated. > >  J. Mak > >  ________________________________ > Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos > > > -- > xubuntu-devel mailing list > <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel</a> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jani Monoses <<a href="mailto:jani.monoses@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> jani.monoses@gmail.com </a>> To: Xubuntu Development Discussion <<a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:49:38 +0200 Subject: Re: Mini survey <div> On 2/10/06, j Mak <<a href="mailto:joz_mak@yahoo.ca" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">joz_mak@yahoo.ca</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div> <div>Recently, I've converted my friend's 13 year old daughter to Linux because her windows got infected every one or two months with viruses and spy-ware. Now, she uses Ubuntu and happy because she can visit all the virus infected download sites without being afraid of getting viruses. But to make her satisfied I had to install a few additional programs like  Limewire, mplayer with the codecs and dvd libraries and F-Spot; now she can do the same things with Linux she got used to doing on the windows. This gave me a chance to learn about her and her friend's surfing and user habits, and helped me to figure what were the most important of programs teenagers couldn't live without. </div> <div></div> <div></div> <div>- a messenger program like Gaim for chatting</div> <div>- a file exchange program like Limewire</div> <div>- a good music player</div> <div>- a video program, like mplayer </div> <div>- an image viewer that can retrieve images from cameras, like F-Spot</div> <div></div> <div>If xubuntu is intended for the average users rather than specialists, I think the default applications should reflect this. From this point of view the Gimp, Inkscape, Dia are not even </div></div></blockquote> </div> Right, it is definitley intended for average users so the programs you mention would be nice if we had low resource and nice alternatives (I bet f-spot is not low resource) but we do not compete with ubuntu/kubuntu as they're in a far better position to provide the average users with  ms-windows like niceness. For instance the good music/video player points are not as much technical as license/patenting related, this is why unfortunatley even ubuntu can't play things the average user would want out of the box.So whether we put gxine/xfmedia/mplayer as default is not as important as the plugins we include. With no mp3 and many common video formats unavailable the app does not matter that much. But I am sure we can have both inskcape/dia and home user apps along on the CD they do not exclude each other, the only blocking criteria are availability and those written in the wiki. Jani ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Collins Richey <<a href="mailto:crichey@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">crichey@gmail.com</a>> To: Xubuntu Development Discussion < <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 23:22:19 +0000 Subject: Re: Office On 2/10/06, Jani Monoses <<a href="mailto:jani.monoses@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> jani.monoses@gmail.com</a>> wrote: > On 2/10/06, christooss <<a href="mailto:christooss@ubuntu.si" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">christooss@ubuntu.si</a>> wrote: > > Hello > > > > Which application does xubuntu use for Office stuff. In excange to OOo > > Impres, Calc, Writer? > > > > Right now only abiword is included, and possibly gnumeric will. No > presentation app though. > I understand the need to stick with apps that perform well on older machines, but OpenOffice is the cross-platform standard these days, and I think it should be included with any install even though it will be slow on older machines. Just $.02. -- Collins Richey      Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code ... If you write      the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not      smart enough to debug it.             -Brian Kernighan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Mauricio Hernandez Z." <<a href="mailto:mhz.chile@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> mhz.chile@gmail.com </a>> To: Xubuntu Development Discussion <<a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:30:24 -0300 Subject: Re: Xubuntu Graphics > Resource-wise, I don't think it is any worse than Gimp. Agree on the > vector part. The only thing is: Most people don't do vector graphics, > and so Inkscape may take up room where a more-used package could go. > <SNIP> Yeah, I understand Inkscape may not be aimed to 'most people' but on the other hand, including will give chances for these people to get to know it and use it. Including such powerful apps. will also give us advantages considering we have more space than GNOME or KDE based CD's. What I mean is: We ship apps that are powerful, high end, and some of them represent clear equivalents to M$ apps. users are used to see, use or even ilegally use, only this time these are free as in freedom and can also be installed in old hardware. -- Cordialmente, Mauricio Hernandez Z. (56+8)7496071 (56+2)3129513 <a href="http://www.ubuntu-cl.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> www.ubuntu-cl.org</a> <a href="http://www.edubuntu.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.edubuntu.org</a> <a href="http://irc.freenode.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> irc.freenode.net</a> | #edubuntu #edubuntu-es <a href="http://www.tecnocimiento.cl/EdubuntuChile" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.tecnocimiento.cl/EdubuntuChile</a> [I dream of things that never were and say 'Why Not?'] ID #287183 <a href="http://counter.li.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://counter.li.org</a> /!\ Mail escrito sin caracteres especiales para evitar conflictos de lectura con otros lectores de correos. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBD7SIQIybwhHG6GzoRAirbAJsEAlONBjf+NADMnkORC4d1jQUqWwCbBVv5 O6fvsGa/6NSDpmDz0MS5nG4= =GdUk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael Moore <<a href="mailto:stuporglue@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> stuporglue@gmail.com</a>> To: Xubuntu Development Discussion < <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:38:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Office > I understand the need to stick with apps that perform well on older > machines, but OpenOffice is the cross-platform standard these days, > and I think it should be included with any install even though it will > be slow on older machines. > > Just $.02. Have you used OO.o on an old machine? If so, what was your experience, and how old was the machine? On PIs, I find that programs like Firefox are barely usable, and I know OO.o uses a lot more memory than Firefox. Note that it's not as much a processor speed issue, but rather how much memory they use and how slow old disks are when you start swapping halfway through the program startup. While I would consider OO.o to be part of a good distro for modern machines, if PIs are prevalant in Xubuntu's target audience, I don't think it's inclusion by default would be a good idea. -- Michael Moore ------------------------------- <a href="http://www.stuporglue.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.stuporglue.org</a> -- Donate your used computer to a student that needs it. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Colin McDermott <<a href="mailto:colmcd@optusnet.com.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">colmcd@optusnet.com.au</a>> To: Xubuntu Development Discussion <<a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com </a>> Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:10:10 +1100 Subject: Re: Office Michael Moore wrote: >> I understand the need to stick with apps that perform well on older >> machines, but OpenOffice is the cross-platform standard these days, >> and I think it should be included with any install even though it will >> be slow on older machines. >> >> Just $.02. >> > > Have you used OO.o on an old machine? If so, what was your experience, > and how old was the machine? On PIs, I find that programs like Firefox > are barely usable, and I know OO.o uses a lot more memory than > Firefox. > I have. Just to note I sincerely doubt that Xubuntu will be able to run on a p1 espeshilly if it has an average amount of ram (ie 32mb). I doubt that it will perform well at all on a 64mb machine (more then happy to be corrected on this). I have found that Ram is the determinate of speed and not the processor. Also I have found that to get a p2 300mhz processor is allot easier then getting say 64 or 128mb of ram. > Note that it's not as much a processor speed issue, but rather how > much memory they use and how slow old disks are when you start > swapping halfway through the program startup. > I agree memory is the big issue. Namely Openoffice takes forever to start. I have seen it take up to 5 minutes on an older system (running ubuntulite). I did other tests using ubuntu lite (which is icewm based.) I found that once loaded performance was useable. 64mb of memory. 3 minutes to load (1 with preloading). 128mb of memory 1 minute to load (14 seconds with preloading). (all tests done on a ibm 300mhz pii). So with Xubuntu it would probably be a slower loading experince. > While I would consider OO.o to be part of a good distro for modern > machines, if PIs are prevalant in Xubuntu's target audience, I don't > think it's inclusion by default would be a good idea. > Personally I think that it should be like inkscape. On the CD but not installed by default (or comes with a prompt during installation). > -- > Michael Moore > ------------------------------- > <a href="http://www.stuporglue.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.stuporglue.org</a> -- Donate your used computer to a student that needs it. > > -- Colin McDermott Reboot Computer Reuse centre Ubuntu Lite <a href="http://groups.google.com.au/group/ubuntu_lite" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> http://groups.google.com.au/group/ubuntu_lite</a> BTW by run I mean run at a slow but useable level. -- xubuntu-devel mailing list <a href="mailto:xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com</a> <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel </a> </blockquote></div>