Discussion: Default office applications

[Peter Rauhut]

> Mousepad is the equivalent of Notepad in Windows. People can probably 
> get on with WordPad (if that still exists), but I haven't seen many 
> non-tech-savvy people use Notepad. Many of them don't even know what 
> it is used for (even if it's obvious when you think about it). 

FYI, WordPad is still around. But I've never seen anybody use it over 
notepad, especially non-tech-savvy people, as Notepad is generally the 
default app that opens text files in Windows. Wordpad only opens 
.doc/.docx files by default, to my knowledge.

> You have to remember that the "installed" size is different than the 
> download size, and that the download includes libraries too. Getting 
> the installed size for just the main package doesn't count those. 

I understand that. I was targeting the download size as the smallest 
available size I could find. The install size is a much greater size to 
evaluate, as the install size of Writer by itself is over 300MB, greater 
than both packages download sizes combined. I used the download size as 
a best case size, since it's just the installer.

> Anybody who studies or works in an office will most likely need a word 
> processor. Anybody doing any kind of (including personal) accounting 
> will need a spreadsheet editor. 

These are specifically the people I was stating that would either know 
how to find the correct packages or have the correct package already 
installed for them. Anybody who is provided a Linux computer in an 
office will have had the tools they need installed when the computer was 
provided to them. Students will either have installed Linux themselves 
and, while they may be new to centralized package management, have 
enough know how to learn about it, or Linux was installed for them by a 
person they can consult on what to get. The same goes for people needing 
a spreadsheet for accounting, though to continue with the Windows 
comparison that we seem to be following, neither Windows nor OSX ship 
with spreadsheet apps, to my knowledge.

I'm not saying we don't need it, I was just asking how crucial it was 
since they are applications with specific use cases that most users 
won't need.

If there is a strong opinion that they are necessary inclusions, then, 
due to space requirements, Abiword and Gnumeric are going to be much 
smaller in size to be included in the ISO, and are both capable of basic 
enough functions. So that would be my vote.


On 1/28/2015 3:42 PM, Pasi Lallinaho wrote:
> On 2015-01-28 23:32, Peter Rauhut wrote:
>> Is it crucial to have a default office application at all? I would 
>> imagine anybody who is new to Linux would be happy just having access 
>> to Mousepad as a GUI text editor in the menu
>
> Mousepad is the equivalent of Notepad in Windows. People can probably 
> get on with WordPad (if that still exists), but I haven't seen many 
> non-tech-savvy people use Notepad. Many of them don't even know what 
> it is used for (even if it's obvious when you think about it).
>
>> and having the option during install to download LO or other similar 
>> packages. An office suite seems like a pretty big space use for 
>> installation media to have. For LO's download files , just Writer 
>> (77.6 MB to download) and Calc (83.6 MB to download) is a pretty big 
>> jump in size compared to Abiword (4.4MB on disk) and Gnumeric (6.6MB) 
>> on disk.
>
> You have to remember that the "installed" size is different than the 
> download size, and that the download includes libraries too. Getting 
> the installed size for just the main package doesn't count those.
>
> Furthermore, if you are evaluating LO Writer and Calc separately, you 
> will count their common libraries twice.
>
>> If having them is crucial, I'd like to see Abiword and Gnumeric stick 
>> around.
>>
>> Honestly, though, I can't imagine why they are needed. I can't see 
>> any use cases where a person who needs them won't either know how to 
>> install them or already have it installed by the people who set up 
>> the computer for them. Almost nobody needs to start editing 
>> spreadsheets as soon as their computer starts up for the first time.
>
> Anybody who studies or works in an office will most likely need a word 
> processor. Anybody doing any kind of (including personal) accounting 
> will need a spreadsheet editor.
>
> Many people coming from Windows have a hard time grasping the concept 
> of centralized repositories. Making them install an essential (see 
> above) application would open the possibility that they will install a 
> non-supported version from somewhere around the Internet.
>
> That being said, there is clear argumentation on why these are being 
> shipped, and I wouldn't want to go deeper into the argumentation 
> whether we should ship such applications or not. Instead, let's focus 
> on picking the right one for Xubuntu.
>
>>
>> On 1/28/2015 3:01 PM, Eero Tamminen wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On keskiviikko 28 tammikuu 2015, Elizabeth K. Joseph wrote:
>>>> We've had this discussion a few times in past cycles, but as we
>>>> continue to bump into bugs in Abiword[0], the topic has come up again.
>>>>
>>>> How are we feeling about our default choice of Abiword and Gnumeric as
>>>> the office applications for Xubuntu? Is it time to consider switching
>>>> to LibreOffice?
>>> I think both are fine as standalone applications.  Main problem 
>>> comes from
>>> file exchange with Windows users, which is fairly frequent use-case.
>>>
>>> * Gnumeric has worked fine for me with Excel documents.
>>>
>>> * Abiword cannot be used even to properly view more complicated Word
>>> documents.
>>>
>>> * When it comes to presentations, while LO-impress can be used to 
>>> view them,
>>> modifying the, with LO normally breaks them (fonts/kerning etc).
>>>
>>>
>>> So, I think the questions are:
>>>
>>> * How well LO fits onto installation media, it and its dependencies 
>>> are much
>>> larger than the games that are being talked about...
>>>
>>> * How important file exchange with Windows users is?
>>>
>>> Solution for latter can also be e.g. "Install full (Windows compatible)
>>> office suite" link on desktop...
>>>
>>>
>>>     - Eero
>>>
>>>> I'll note that in the past the pro-LibreOffice users tended to
>>>> dominate these discussions. Feel free to speak up, but we're actively
>>>> encouraging the folks who use and prefer Abiword and Gnumeric to speak
>>>> up too. How would changing the default impact you? Do you feel
>>>> strongly about not switching to LibreOffice?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks everyone.
>>>>
>>>> [0] One of the latest that came up during testing:
>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/abiword/+bug/1395323
>>
>>
>
>