<div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I'd like to point out, though, that Mr Olive's comment seems to be of the drive-by variety; a search with Google through the ubuntu-marketing mail archives seems to indicate that he has no prior involvement on that list, so please don't assume that he speaks for the marketing team. Martin Albisetti, on the other hand, who has a bit more involvement, has done more than simply blow off suggestions that this should change.</blockquote><div> Actually, I did read the entire thread before posting. My biggest problem is with the initial response by Martin Albisetti. As a leader (his name is on the newsletter masthead) it's his responsibility to set the tone of the discussion. His response was defensive. And then his follow-up response trivialized the criticism: From the original thread (my emphasis added in bold): " <pre>I sincerely apologize if it came out too defensive, I was just surprised (and a bit annoyed) it sparked two emails on such a small detail, the first thing that popped into my head way "it's so much easier to just take a peak at the UWN beforehand if these things are so important". Probably answered too quickly, and it goes without saying it only represents my take on the matter, not the whole team's." </pre></div> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Of course, since the newsletter is a collaborative effort, there is little that one person can do about this matter directly, but I would hope that this notice will have made people a little more vigilant in their proof-reading. </blockquote></div> Collaborative effort means everyone involved in writing, funding, proof-reading and reading is responsible for the end product. Leaders within that group should be particularly vigilant with regards to staying on message -- particularly in a marketing effort. The Ubuntu message/mission is an inclusive one. Elizabeth and Melissa did their part as readers of the newsletters and leaders in the Ubuntu community by pointing out that they felt a specific item was not in tune with the Ubuntu message. Expecting them to also take the responsibility to proof-read as a response to a criticism is ridiculous. Martin's -- who takes a leadership role in publishing the newsletter -- reply should have along the lines of: "You know you're right, we didn't think through how "and wives" would be interpreted. Thanks for pointing this out, we'll publish a correction and be sure to use more inclusive verbiage in the future." And yes one person can make a difference in influencing and controlling the tone of a mailing list thread, especially when they are a leader. So often women make logical, kindly worded responses on a subject which they are inherent experts because of their gender to help steer the community away from accidental sexism only to be lambasted for speaking up. It's bad enough getting this sort of response on/in technical mailing lists/forums, but it absolutely should NEVER happen in a Ubuntu community dedicated to marketing. I'm posting to the Ubuntu-Women mailing-list on this topic to support the women who are making an effort to continue with the kindly worded responses. I'd also like to encourage them to take things to the Canonical management when they receive the sort of response they did in reply to their criticisms from fellow leaders in the community, particularly when it deals with marketing. I have no desire to get involved in a session of bickering on the marketing list. Jennifer