Thank you Judy, I really conscent with you, many men use this to intimidate us, We can do better by showing them we have a focus and cause. Its really annoying, very annoying, I have experienced it too, at some ocassions and I know how bad it is. Lets focus on our cause and do our very best to be even more geeky, Such men will soon give up their intentions. Best regards, <div>On 4/2/07, Judy Okite <<a href="mailto:judyokite@gmail.com">judyokite@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Hello Ladies, Am really sorry and I do feel for all of you who have been victims of this sort of behaviour(stupidity or sadism?) Just to encourage all of us,this kind of behaviour is as a result of intimidation......these men feel intimidated by you...and this is the best way they can get back at you....dont let it get into you or make you loose focus on your goal...what we need to do is,once you have let the list admin know...throw it off the window,ignore and dont stop,posting.....just remember: A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. and he who annoys you,controls you...dont let it happen, we have energy,lets focus them else where. Kind Regards, <div>On 4/2/07, <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com </a> <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Send ubuntu-women mailing list submissions to <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com</a> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women</a> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com </a> You can reach the person managing the list at <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women-owner@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women-owner@lists.ubuntu.com </a> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ubuntu-women digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: ubuntu-women Digest, Vol 15, Issue 2 (Miss Augustina) 2. Re: Some will never learn... (Miss Augustina) 3. Men who hate women on the Web - ripples from the Kathy Sierra story (Romana Branden) 4. Re: Some will never learn... (Melissa Draper) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 11:55:04 -0700 From: "Miss Augustina" <<a href="mailto:missaugustina@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">missaugustina@gmail.com </a>> Subject: Re: [UbuntuWomen] ubuntu-women Digest, Vol 15, Issue 2 To: <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:c6a0b72e0704011155q2b39e3eds3fe3783fe012cb82@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> c6a0b72e0704011155q2b39e3eds3fe3783fe012cb82@mail.gmail.com </a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I understand when I read PlanetUbuntu that these are personal blogs and the views expressed by the writers do not necessarily represent *ubuntu*. If a writer is being extremely offensive, that's one thing. If a writer is expressing an opinion over something that happened in the Ubuntu community, I think that is perfectly OK and not in violation of any standards. The fact that they are choosing to express themselves in their personal blog that they host vs on a forum gives people a lot of leeway. Not everything written in blogs on planet ubuntu is in line with the ubuntu code of conduct. If that is something that you feel is important, then instead of targeting Caroline you should take it up with the appropriate Ubuntu community group and suggest all blogs should equally adhere to this code. Many of us who stand up in these situations quickly become targeted. It doesn't stop me from standing up but it does make me less enthusiastic about being involved in a group where I was targeted. I'll give an example of my situation, and I'm curious to hear stories from other Ubuntu Women as well. There is an independent electronic fest that happens locally called Decibel Fest. On a local electronic music mailing list the organizer posted an email with the subject "Club Boobies". I thought it was odd but ignored it as the post itself had nothing to do with the subject. One list member asked why he'd used "Club Boobies" as a subject, and he replied "so that people would read the email - everyone loves boobies" or something to that effect. I voiced that I felt that was really inappropriate and only served to further marginalize women in the electronic music community, and that as a high profile member of the community he should apologize. Well he didn't, he instead blasted me saying things like "the war in Iraq and our bad president is a bigger issue it's too bad we can't focus on all the piddly little issues out there". I complained to the list owner and got nothing from him. This guy is kind of *big* in the community so everyone was afraid to say anything to him lest they fall out of his good graces.. and basically I got black listed. No one said anything to me publicly although privately I was told that they also felt he was a little out of line. Gee thanks. Whoa that was a lot!! Haha.. Augustina On 4/1/07, <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a> < <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > wrote: > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:16:17 -0400 > From: "Ubuntu Ready" <<a href="mailto:ubuntuready@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> ubuntuready@gmail.com</a>> > Subject: [UbuntuWomen] A slight caveat > To: <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > Message-ID: > <<a href="mailto:229c320d0703312016x9eee592vbb502727ba23285c@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> 229c320d0703312016x9eee592vbb502727ba23285c@mail.gmail.com </a>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Caroline found a sexist joke on her forum, and pointed out that it > violated > the Ubuntu Code of Conduct. She was right in doing this. Her behavior was > appropriate. A discussion followed as to whether or not her observation > was > correct. Caroline did not participate in this discussion. The poster of > the > sexist joke was unable to concede that his joke was inappropriate, but he > apologized to whomever was offended. The consensus of the people on the > forum was that the joke was inappropriate. Why was there a discussion at > all? Because nobody at Ubuntu, not even Mark Shuttlesworth, tells the rest > of us how to think. We decide for ourselves. The Ubuntu Community respects > our individual autonomy, as women and men. The consensus of the people on > the forum was that the joke was inappropriate. Apologies were made, not > only > by the poster, but by many others as well. Caroline did not participate in > this discussion. > > Later, Caroline wrote in her blog, which was syndicated on Ubuntu UK > Planet. > In it, she used a rather harsh expletive, and in response, she received an > anonymous complaint: "I find this post both offensive and rude. > Considering > your recent reaction to an email on the ubuntu-uk's mailing list. I am > shocked that you use such bad language, knowing full well that it will be > shown on the ubuntu-uk planet. If you wish to continue being so crude, > please remove yourself from the planet." > > Although one could interpret such a response as baiting her, we all > understand that text-based forums, such as email and user-groups are rife > with misunderstandings that arise as a result of interpreting written > language the same way we interpret speech. We can easily read sarcasm > where > it does not reside. Anyone who has used the internet for longer than a > month > has fallen into a bitter dispute over a comment misinterpreted (or > accurately interpreted) as a flame, and friends get lost and feelings get > hurt by such disputes. The savvy internet user knows that these disputes > erupt constantly, and sagely side-steps them when they arise. > > Even if we were to interpret this comment in the most hostile possible > way, > the anonymous complaint has merit, even if his suggestion for resolution > does not. The objection to her obscene language is appropriate. > > * Her language was offensive. > * To my knowledge, she has not taken the admonition with nearly the grace > that she would insist upon in the author of the sexist joke. > > We are all traumatized and appalled by the threats against Kathy Sierra. > To > suggest that Caroline is being similarly victimized is disingenuous. > > It is truly not my intention to upset anyone on this mailing list. I > consider everyone on this list to be my colleagues. I would like to > believe > that, in this post, I have tried to treat all of you with the utmost > respect > and courtesy. I spent ninety minutes writing this post, and I feel I have > been very careful in my deliberate choice of words. Should you choose to > reply to this post, I ask that you please react to what I have written as > if > I spent ninety minutes writing this post, and had been very careful in my > choice of words. > > Jeremy. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/attachments/20070331/434ca41d/attachment.htm" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/attachments/20070331/434ca41d/attachment.htm </a> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/attachments/20070401/2c408fd0/attachment.htm" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/attachments/20070401/2c408fd0/attachment.htm </a> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 12:08:07 -0700 From: "Miss Augustina" <<a href="mailto:missaugustina@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> missaugustina@gmail.com</a>> Subject: Re: [UbuntuWomen] Some will never learn... To: <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:c6a0b72e0704011208r4f22c839w5816c84ffccd7f3a@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> c6a0b72e0704011208r4f22c839w5816c84ffccd7f3a@mail.gmail.com </a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I totally agree. Although some sites are pretty central, like Slashdot. Sometimes you can't really moderate the community but if your organizers uphold a standard then it helps. I tend to filter a lot when I'm interacting with those sites, and while sexism is a big deal, there is also a lot of general stupidity that even smart people have to filter out. The state of the world is that most people are stupid and that's really really sad. I'm lucky to have found the Ubuntu community where there seems to be less of that than in most places. It's really up to us to support sites and become active in those communities. It's also important to speak out in the right context when we feel something is wrong. Not necessarily with the intention of fixing it, but sometimes just identifying a problem is important. Augustina On 4/1/07, <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a> < <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com </a>> wrote: > > > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 16:18:20 +0930 > From: Amanda Angell <<a href="mailto:amandaangell@spin.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> amandaangell@spin.net.au</a>> > Subject: Re: [UbuntuWomen] Some will never learn... > To: Ubuntu-Women <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> > Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:200704011618.21135.amandaangell@spin.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> 200704011618.21135.amandaangell@spin.net.au </a>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > On Sunday 01 April 2007 3:45 pm, t u wrote: > > Amanda Angell wrote: > > > [snip] It just means that women will congregate around the better > sites > > > (or start their own) in the future [snip] > > > > There won't be any "better sites" if no one fights back though... > > There already are better sites out there than the *one* I don't go to > anymore. > What's the point of trying to make all the bad ones good? Sounds like a > fight > that we'll never win, certainly not everywhere. > > The internet isn't all doom-and-gloom for women. There are more positive > things we can be doing with our time. :) > > Amanda. > > -- do you ubuntu? <a href="http://www.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> http://www.ubuntu.com</a> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/attachments/20070401/fe90bd2a/attachment.htm" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/attachments/20070401/fe90bd2a/attachment.htm </a> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 06:39:40 +0930 From: Romana Branden <<a href="mailto:timelady@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> timelady@gmail.com</a>> Subject: [UbuntuWomen] Men who hate women on the Web - ripples from the Kathy Sierra story To: Ubuntu-Women <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:chix@au.linuxchix.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">chix@au.linuxchix.org</a> , LinuxSA <<a href="mailto:linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au</a>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:46101F94.1030906@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> 46101F94.1030906@gmail.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 An intriguing article on Salon (click through ad to read...) <a href="http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/03/31/sierra/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/03/31/sierra/ </a> "Men who hate women on the Web. And the women (like me) who try to ignore them. Or at least I did -- until the Kathy Sierra affair." Nice to see a discussion being opened. The Kathy Sierra affair has at least had that much of a positive associated. Its unfortunate many men (or often, adolescents who think they are men) don't realise how grindingly erosive the undercurrent of misogyny and sexism is. 'I wouldn't hit that' is so common a response to any story about a female, no matter the context. I enjoy much of the humour of <a href="http://Fark.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Fark.com</a>, and the topics of Digg, but honestly, I often have to walk away from the stupid comments about the sexual attractiveness of any woman. That doesn't even then touch on how virulently hostile men can be to having their innuendo and bad taste jokes, their sexual ratings etc, pointed out as uncomfortable, a double standard, wrong! It can range from 'lighten up', 'get a life', 'whats your problem', to vicious comments about the offended person's sexuality, mental state, and now, in the case of Kathy Sierra, and disturbingly large amounts of surfacing anecdotal evidence, threats of rape or other violence. To all the people suggesting such threats can be dismissed because they are online, they obviously have thicker skins, or no sense that people can be unhinged enough to carry through with revolting behavior. If I am upset by your comments, I do not suggest I will rape or assault you. Noone is suggesting tip toeing on eggshells around each other. But what is wrong with (the sadly misnamed as) common courtesy being used? Or treating people as people, not as some anonymous target, sexual object, etc? Would you say such things to a woman's face? Would you like your mother, daughter, sister, treated this way? And there is no need to ignore the fact that men and women can be attractive to each other, it is just about how you approach it. I am happy to say "oo, I find Patrick Stewart to be a hottie', but I don't then feel the need to denigrate the sexual attractiveness of other men. All this questioning about why women are less in IT - well, the prevailing impression of an adolescent community is perpetuated by the stories floating to the surface. I have a thick skin, but its not about me, and thats why I am speaking up. My beautiful geek inclined (and the non geeky ones) daughters deserve better. I must point out how lucky I have been - all the geek community my wonderful girls have encountered have been magic. So far. But thats the filter we put in place, as parents. The majority of Linux and geeky people I have encountered have also been great. But there have been some that have left me shaking, with rage, with fear, with a feeling of being judged on my gender....thats not ok. Just some points to ponder.... r:) -- -o) Romana Branden /\\ Nothing - well, thats something. _\_V <a href="http://timelady.com/blog/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://timelady.com/blog/</a> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 20:23:40 +1000 From: Melissa Draper <<a href="mailto:melissa@meldraweb.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> melissa@meldraweb.com</a>> Subject: Re: [UbuntuWomen] Some will never learn... To: Ubuntu-Women <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4610D9AC.8090704@meldraweb.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> 4610D9AC.8090704@meldraweb.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Caroline Ford wrote: > <a href="http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=932" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=932</a> > > This is Jono Bacon's take on the matter. Somebody whom I'm generally not > very impressed with. > > Matthew Garrett and Mako have a *much* better understanding of the > issues involved. Jono appears not to have read the Code of Conduct. > > Caroline Caroline, I know you're angry, I really do. I've been there before for different but unfortunately related reasons. However, we do need to take a rational look at things. That is all that was asked for in the blog post you referred to, we need to provide a balanced perspective. The blogosphere, related communities and the media are currently taking note of what is going on, reading, following, waiting with baited breath for the next twist to this story. Our conversation here for instance is being played out in the public eye. Having said that, I'd respectfully like to now ask you to please think about what is being said. On Thursday, I spoke over the issue, your issue, with Jono Bacon and the Ubuntu-UK Contact, the two people you mentioned in your email on that day. Neither were impressed with the comments you made about them in the publicly viewable forum that is this list. They were both quite disappointed with the way you spoke about them, without having consulted either beforehand. I am personally quite disappointed at the things you have said about Jono, of lacking impartiality and not complying with the CoC. It may be perceived that I am taking a side here. I am. I am taking the side of someone who I've worked with intensively since September, and is someone who I consider to be both a friend and a mentor. Looking over the past week, and I say this as respectfully as it is possible to do so, I can see that you yourself have not been entirely respectful - having said things about others without having first properly consulted them. So please, and this is to everyone on the list, if you have a problem with someone, talk to the person. If you have an issue with the way that person dealt with it, please take it to someone who's position or job it is to handle such disputes. -- Sincerely Melissa Draper <a href="http://www.meldraweb.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.meldraweb.com</a> Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 ------------------------------ -- ubuntu-women mailing list <a href="mailto:ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com</a> <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women</a> End of ubuntu-women Digest, Vol 15, Issue 3 ******************************************* </blockquote></div> -- Judy Ann Okite, +254-721237507,+254-734252336 P.O. BOX 2228 00100, NAIROBI,KENYA. "Even if you are on the right track, you'll still get run over if you just sit there." -- ubuntu-women mailing list <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com</a> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women" target="_blank"> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women</a> </blockquote></div>