[UbuntuWomen] UW article for Fullcircle mag

[Cathy]

Can I chime in my view? I see it in Venn diagram format. U-W is for that
little cross-section of:

* Ubuntu, ie technical
* women-specific issues

It's both technical + women. It's not exclusionary, just a spot for one
particular blend of topics that needs a voice.

Perhaps sometimes it might feel exclusionary, but it's just people asking
others to stay on topic.

Let me know if I'm off-base with U-W's intent. My opinion is fairly simple.
I don't know if that's appropriate or not for this group. (In some groups,
simple helps keep focus; in others, simple ignores the finer issues which
shape direction.)

--Cathy


On Jan 12, 2008 7:44 AM, Elizabeth Bevilacqua <lyz at ubuntu.com> wrote:

> On 1/12/08, Vid Ayer <svaksha at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 12, 2008 7:54 PM, Elizabeth Bevilacqua <lyz at ubuntu.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > It's not non-existent. One of the biggest criticisms of the Ubuntu
> > > Women project is that we segregate. This is why we dropped our
> > > separate courses program and joined Ubuntu Classroom.
> >
> > Nope, its not dropped, it was never promoted well. Finding willing
> > mentors was also an issue.
>
> Yes it is. We've discussed this on list and the wiki was updated
> several months ago. We have stopped the Courses program and now are
> focusing our efforts on Classroom.
>
> This happened after sharp criticism of our team for duplicating the
> effort of the Classroom project.
>
> > > Why do women need a special place to be technical? I'm just as
> > > competent as my male counterparts, I learn the same way, I want to be
> > > treated the same way. I don't NEED a separate space to be technical
> > > in, none of us do.
> >
> > Repeating my earlier mail, ...
> > "Which is where there is a lot of confusion and mis-understanding of
> > what UW is all about. If being a part of project UW is segregation by
> > gender, by that logic almost every Ubuntu loco team is segregation on
> > the basis of country, and other project teams (art, technical, motu,
> > etc...) segregated on the basis of specialization. That can be deemed
> > unfair in the larger Free Software philosophy which (to summarize in a
> > single word) is all about being "inclusive"."
>
> I don't agree that Ubuntu Women can be compared to LoCo teams or other
> specialized teams, the aims are too different. Ubuntu Women is
> targeting half the planet's population to do everything in Ubuntu. Not
> focusing on packaging or artwork or localization.
>
> > > If we keep saying Ubuntu Women should be technical then the message
> > > we're sending is that we are different and we need special treatment.
> > > I thought this was the attitude we were trying to fight.
> >
> > None here asked for special treatment. Discussing technical,
> > development or mentoring issues does not automatically mean we are
> > special or asked for special privs because we discussed it in UW
> > lists.
>
> The key word you use here is "Issues" - yes, we can discuss
> "technical, development or mentoring ISSUES" but when we become a
> duplicate of the help channels, the motu channels, etc targeted at
> just women it becomes separatist. Can't we just encourage women new to
> the project to join us in the main #ubuntu channels? Upping our
> presence in the general Ubuntu community is how we get things to
> change.
>
> > > I thought we wanted to increase the number of women in the general
> > > Ubuntu community? How does segregating female technical stuff within
> > > Ubuntu Women help that? It doesn't. It hurts us.
> >
> > Sorry then you mis-understood what UW was all about in the first
> > place. Please see the main page of www.ubuntu-women.org, and the
> > message is very clear from the day i founded it more than two years
> > ago.... UW has always been modelled along DW (debian-women).
> > To /quote:
> > We aim to provide an opportunity for women who want to be involved in
> > the Ubuntu community thereby increasing the diversity in Ubuntu-Linux
> > by :
> >
> >     * Encouraging women to participate, for example, to learn to
> > create new FLOSS software (or revamp existing software), not only to
> > use GNU/Linux software, but to integrate backwards and learn more
> > about it.
> >     * Mentoring women in specific areas (such as technical,
> > documentation, translation and communication) so they have the
> > information and support necessary to take these new steps, to get
> > through barriers or difficulties, and to keep learning and growing in
> > the Ubuntu-Linux world.
> >     * Providing opportunities by sponsoring women who wish to give
> > technical presentations, or talk about their Ubuntu experience at
> > International conferences and seminars.
> >     * Organising hack-fests, bar camps for women at Linux conferences.
> >     * Increasing the number of women using Ubuntu-Linux in a
> > country-specific manner by providing a platform for talks at local
> > universities, LUGs and schools, which will encourage others to join.
> >     * Openly discussing issues facing women and their involvement in
> > Ubuntu (and Linux) and how to address them.
> >
> > Programming is highly development-oriented and the vagaries of each
> > distro makes it even more difficult in terms of identifying a problem
> > in "X" application, and knowing how to 'fix' it. We hope to increase
> > the diversity ratio by creating an atmosphere for women to communicate
> > openly and ask technical questions without any fear of being flamed or
> > ridiculed for asking so-called silly questions.
> >
> > /unquote
>
> I agree with everything until the "technical questions" bit. I think
> what we want to try to do is encourage *everyone* to ask questions in
> the main mailing lists/forums/irc channels and be supportive when
> these questions are asked.
>
> My vision is changing Ubuntu as a whole, not creating a "safe" space
> within Ubuntu Women. I don't think anyone should be ridiculed anywhere
> for asking "so-called silly questions" - this isn't just a women's
> issue.
>
> > > Ubuntu Women SHOULD be about offering tips to survive in Ubuntu,
> > > sharing experiences and hardships, encouraging and helping each other
> > > to contribute to Ubuntu in general (via "horn tootin'" posts,
> > > mentoring, and publicizing Classroom), approaching community leaders
> > > when problems crop up, showcasing women within the Ubuntu project who
> > > can be role models, and keeping each informed about upcoming events
> > > that we might be interested in.
> >
> > wrong, see above. I repeat, UW is not an "agony/complaint centre for
> > women issues in technology" so dont make it one. That is a huge
> > disservice to the women who come here expecting more from us.
>
> Then I am very mistaken as to what the goals of this project are, and
> will start considering withdrawing my support for it.
>
> > > Ubuntu Women SHOULD NOT be a girls club where we hide and do technical
> > > stuff rather than joining the broader project.
> >
> > It never was, so dont make it one by removing the technical aspects
> > especially when women are interested in it. That is discouraging to
> > all of us.
>
> I don't think you understood my statement.
>
> What it sounds like is you believe Ubuntu Women should duplicate the
> efforts of all the other projects within Ubuntu rather than working to
> get women integrated with those existing projects. I think this is
> damaging and not at all practical given the lack of success we've had
> with major initiatives such as the Mentoring project.
>
> > I dont recall women asking special privs because of their gender and
> > when were men banned or asked not to join UW ?
>
> It has nothing to do with not allowing men to contribute. Melissa and
> I already explained this.
>
> > Say if women use UW (lists, irc, forums) to discuss about packaging
> > for Ubuntu, is that package not going back in to the distro? So how
> > does that not count as contribution into the larger community
>
> Because I thought our goal was to get more women contributing
> directly, upping our presence in main channels, on main mailing lists,
> on official forums, in loco teams. Not duplicating efforts by creating
> things like what essentially feel like #ubuntu-women-motu and such.
>
> > and why
> > is it discounted because it was under the aegis of UW. If so that
> > convoluted logic should be applied to all groups and teams, not just
> > UW.
>
> Other teams contribute directly to the main Ubuntu resources. For
> example MOTU works with Ubuntu Classroom to hold classes rather than
> having separate classes like UW used to.
>
> --
> Elizabeth Bevilacqua
> http://www.princessleia.com
>
> --
> ubuntu-women mailing list
> ubuntu-women at lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women
>
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