<html><head></head><body><div class="gmail_quote">On December 15, 2017 5:20:17 PM EST, Xen <list@xenhideout.nl> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"> <pre class="k9mail">Liam Proven schreef op 15-12-2017 20:32: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;"> But, they merged CPU and GPU which I think is a very bad idea because it is only useful for video acceleration and not for gaming, because any APU is not good enough </blockquote> Speak for yourself. </blockquote> I am speaking for myself, and for many other gamers. You can quit it, you know. <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> For the very occasional level of gaming I do, onboard GPUs are more than enough. </blockquote> So what. Portal 2 has system requirements 46x less than current entry level games. You can play that game on onboard graphics from 2009, the HD Radeon 3200 I mentioned. <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;"> and it takes out the fun of buying a graphics card, </blockquote> Fun? O_o </blockquote> Yeah, you know, gaming, fun, people think it's fun. <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;"> and you now cannot upgrade your CPU without your GPU and vice versa. </blockquote> That's not true. You can add a graphics card, or even multiple ones, and the on-board GPU just gets disabled. </blockquote> That's not what I said. I said that you cannot change the CPU without changing the GPU, not the other way around. <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> So such machines are every bit as upgradable as those with no GPU. </blockquote> The difference was not with a system with no GPU, the comparison was with a system with onboard GPU. If you compare it with a system with no GPU, of course it won't matter much. <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;"> I thought motherboard GPU was a much better solution. </blockquote> Then you can't upgrade it at all, ever. </blockquote> You didn't need to because you had discrete GPUs for that. Now you can upgrade your APU, yes, but the CPU itself is so much more powerful than the APU that comes with it, that upgrading your APU for playing games makes no sense; you don't need the CPU horsepower, only the GPU horsepower. So why would you upgrade the APU to get better graphics performance? And if you need better graphics performance, why would you upgrade the APU? So in order to upgrade, you *still* need to buy a graphics card (and not a faster CPU). However, if you did not buy an APU, you had to buy a graphics card from the get go, which is annoying, because they are expensive and you cannot test your system first on the onboard graphics that way. So for about the same price AMD now has an offering of the Ryzen 3 1200 and the A12 9800E. The Ryzen is 40% faster but has no graphics. So you would choose graphics over 29% lower performance, I mean that you get your graphics chip but you pay with ~29% lower performance. Previously this was merely the choice between ATX and mATX motherboards. So if you think you are going to be buying a discrete GPU at some point anyway, it makes no sense to now buy a CPU that's 29% slower. So you now have to make this choice ahead of time instead of after the fact, which is a huge detriment, at least to me. So for someone like me, I have no choice but to get the Ryzen and then to immediately get the GPU I think I need (If I didn't have any). But that's tricky business. More than that, I now don't have a fallback. I can't fall back to internal graphics anymore. Before I would get onboard GPU, CPU, and then later graphics card. The mere fallback to internal graphics is not worth 29% slower CPU. <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> You can _replace_ it with a separate card, but not take it out and put a better one. </blockquote> This is void; that's what discrete cards are for. With an APU, you also cannot say "Well, my CPU is fast enough, but I need a faster GPU, so I guess I will.... replace the GPU part of the APU now." You are simply stuck in the same upgrade cycle for both. Getting a faster CPU makes no sense unless it is a lot faster, and you are also paying for the graphics card at the same time, making you unwilling to spend that money again. The APU is also quite slow and even paired with good graphics card performs sometimes abysmally. <a href="https://www.techspot.com/review/1486-amd-a12-9800/page2.html">https://www.techspot.com/review/1486-amd-a12-9800/page2.html</a> It's simply a slow CPU and a slow graphics card. Yes you can play games from 2008, of course. You can also play Diablo III and World of Warcraft and Rift or Guild Wars 2 will also do fine. Yet you will never have the appetite to upgrade your CPU to a Ryzen because you lose your graphics, and you don't have much appetite to buy a GPU because the CPU is more likely to bottleneck you at that point, so you need to upgrade both. Upgrading both means you can throw away your APU. Moreover you have already paid for your GPU... so in the end you might decide to get a graphics card and then succumb to also replacing the APU with a Ryzen, and then keeping the APU in reserve for whatever... So for upgrade paths, this is terrible. <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> Honestly, after the Intel management code debacle, I am considering an AMD for next time. </blockquote> Well I can understand that. It's just that previously you could get a cheap motherboard with reasonable onboard graphics and all upgrade paths available to you; faster CPU, easy, faster GPU, easy. Now you have to choose: APU or CPU + discrete? The choice for me is always going to be Ryzen. But I hate not having onboard graphics. <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;"> So, for me that day meant that I grew less fond of ATI graphics cards.... (AMD now). </blockquote> Don't care about that. </blockquote> Well then there is little reason to comment :p. This was about video cards you know :p. </pre></blockquote></div> Xen, could I ask you to put a little bit more effort into your writing? You don't need to make each sentence into a paragraph - it makes it very painful to read your posts. They would also benefit from being read through before being sent. Thank you.</body></html>