<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:22 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY <<a href="mailto:clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com">clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div class="Ih2E3d">David McNally wrote: > I know that it is weird to see Macs that often, and in fact, I rarely > see them outside of my school. </div>You lead a sheltered life then. A significant part of the attendees at any tech conference I've attended in the last few years were carrying Apple's notebooks. Apple has made huge inroads amongst developers and it is also doing so amongst younger people. The iPod has introduced a new generation to Apple's products. Here is a real conversation overheard by one of my brothers on the subway a few months ago between two teenagers: Teenager 1: Did you know that Apple started making computers? I'm going to get a MacBook for my birthday. It's just as slick as an iPod. Teenager 2: Kewl. I read a few months ago that 33 cents of every dollar spent on back-to-school notebook purchases in the U.S. were spent on Apple products and Apple's notebooks constituted 20 per cent of the total unit sales. Apple saw double-digit gains in sales over the same time last year whereas all the other vendors, who are killing one another to eke out a 5% margin compared to Apples 25% or better, were flat. That is a pretty impressive achievement for Apple, especially in a down economy. [snip] <div class="Ih2E3d">> Of course, lunch is an important part > of the school day all around the world, and would function more properly > if it were running on Linux, </div>I prefer my lunch to be quite still and not running, thank you. <div class="Ih2E3d"> > but it's not the only part (I know that you > said that, I'm just agreeing with you). If schools were able to run > everything on Linux, everything would work smoother, considering the > smoothness that Linux provides. > > I have, however, noticed that Microsoft and Apple do better at making > sure that the computer works rather well than the Linux community. </div>[snip] <div class="Ih2E3d">> There are similar problems that I've found in Linux. Obviously, I still > think that Ubuntu would beat Windows or OS X any day, but it's not > perfect, and it never will be. It still has many more advantages than > Windows or OS X. </div>If I were your teacher, you'd be asked to revise and resubmit because the inconsistencies in what you wrote are glaring. How is it "obvious" that Linux is better if "Microsoft and Apple do better at making sure that the computer works rather well than the Linux community"? <div class="Ih2E3d"> > Next, I want to respond to Paige Thompson's and Clifford Ilkay's replies: > It seems that Clifford felt that I shouldn't refer to these people as > 'rich idiots'. While it is somewhat true, I do see quite a bit of truth > in the fact that people will do what you want if you treat them with > more respect. > > On the other hand, Paige pointed out that "that's just exactly the kind > of mentality that has held Ubuntu back". I agree with that statement > more than Clifford's, although Clifford does have a good point. I think > that 'rich idiots' was, indeed, a little harsh, but I think that they > should be recommended to switch very strongly. </div>Just what exactly is this binary choice that you and Paige seem to think exists? Are you suggesting that being respectful of the people whom you wish to convince of the merits of your arguments, such as they are, is mutually exclusive with promoting Linux? <div class="Ih2E3d"> > I'd also like to mention that this school has no difficulty buying > software, but, that doesn't mean that it should spend so much money on > software when it could be spent on better teachers or newer textbooks or > better food or something else productive. I agree with Paige on this one > again: moving away from software that a school can't afford (or can, but > shouldn't) is always a good idea. </div>It's only a good idea if someone can make a solid case for it AND you can gain the acceptance of the people involved through demonstrable benefits. [snip] <div class="Ih2E3d">> No one uses OpenOffice. Instead, we get to use the worst productivity > suite ever: MS Office 2008. I wonder how IT didn't figure this one out > yet. The teachers who teach computer classes have to re-learn how to use > Office because everything's been rearranged because of that stupid > ribbon. OpenOffice would be a much better idea, so I'll have to see what > I can do. </div>Spending money on software is not necessarily bad *if* there is a demonstrable benefit. <div class="Ih2E3d"> > Clifford has pointed out that he has already gotten students using > Linux. This comes as a total shock to me, as I've always gone to school > to Macs. I still remember using very old versions of the Macintosh OS > (definately pre-OS X) back in kindergarten, and up into the first few > years of elementary school. > > Clifford then pointed out how much work it has taken to move his school > to using just a few Linux machines and mostly Windows machines. </div>No, it's the other way around. By the time we are finished, the majority of the machines in the school will be running Linux, not Windows. Like most schools, we have more computers being used for teaching than for school administration. <div class="Ih2E3d"> > If this > will need such dedication from everyone involved, then moving this > school, which has been on Macintosh since before I was born, will be > more work than most schools. People here are also very stubborn, > especially IT. </div>Their resistance to change is understandable and not necessarily a bad thing. You can't and shouldn't discount years of experience and infrastructure and claim that Linux is magically going to make everything better when you're talking about shades of grey difference between OS X and Linux. OS X has some definite advantages over Linux and the converse is also true. In other words, it's not a clear, decisive win for Linux when competing against OS X. Against Windows, in most cases, it's much easier to justify Linux. <div class="Ih2E3d"> > There's no question that Ubuntu would be able to work on these > computers. While some of them are old, they're still new enough to run > Ubuntu. The school has big metal carts that hold about 30 notebooks > (these carts are called 'COWs', short for 'Computers On Wheels'), which > are usually filled with rather new notebooks, but only because the > notebooks are the first things to fall apart, with keys falling out and > plastic casing coming off. Such new notebooks would be able to run > Ubuntu quite well. The desktops here are also quite good, though, > because the school tries to spend more money on the desktops, knowing > that they will die long after a notebook bought at the same time, so > those will be able to run Ubuntu quite well, too. > > Saving money is nice, but changing the way an entire high school uses > computers is hard, no matter how much money it saves. </div>That's because they may not save any money at all if the cost of retraining and the loss of productivity during the transition period exceeds the cost of software licenses. This is the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) argument, which is an argument that Apple is very experienced at making. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay Dinamis 1419-3266 Yonge St. Toronto, ON Canada M4N 3P6 <<a href="http://dinamis.com" target="_blank">http://dinamis.com</a>> +1 416-410-3326 -- ubuntu-users mailing list <a href="mailto:ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users</a> </blockquote></div>I have followed this thread with interest with no intention of contributing because while I have a great deal of experience with school food service I have had minimal exposure to administration, superintendents, business manager and the like. That being said the decision to change any on going process in a public school setting rests with administration. In its early stages when I was endeavoring to get school food service to implement HACCP "Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point" I experienced an almost insurmountable administrative wall. While Food Service Directors saw and appreciated the extreme importance it was ultimately an administrative decision hence I had to brave the lions den so to speak. Please take my word for this I am articulate and was passionate about food safety to a fault. Plus I have an aggresive in your face persona which did not sit well. In short I had to change my approach and win over administration and ultimately it was more cost effective to implement HACCP and they made the switch. Incidentally I am talking Texas and 1086 districts. Finally your attitude and your ability to win over administration is the Key and believe it or not your body language. I hope this helps somewhat -- Allen Meyers <a href="mailto:texas.chef94@gmail.com">texas.chef94@gmail.com</a> MSN as headbanger <a href="mailto:chef11994@sbcglobal.net">chef11994@sbcglobal.net</a>